I see your point, but expect it is from your point of view today, not form the 60's. I'd suspect that today I'd probably feel the same way, but then again today I don't see that much patriotism as there was in the 60's.. But then again, now that I think about it, we were divided then too, about half and half. Combat too I think effects one's ideas, after you've been shot at, mortared and rocketed, your outlook on life changes. It especially changes when you see friends not make it. I think I learned a lot about myself in the Army. I'm still a nice guy, but have more doubts about others than I would guess I'd have without the service experience.

"Actually there is no difference between being drafted and volunteering. Once most military personnel are in, they would not trade the experience for anything in this world."

I am not at all like this. If I joined because I choose to it would be a grand experience I would not trade for anything. If I were forced to join, even if I had a good experience with it, I would always feel forced. That feeling of being forced into something leaves a bad taste in my mouth and would not sit well with me even if it turned out great in the end.

I found it interesting that others were not that way with the draft. I would have likely washed out if drafted because I would not care to try to much. If I went in voluntarily I would do well because I would care about what I was doing. I would have thought more people would be like that.

Hopeful that was the kind of clarity you were looking for.

Please elaborate on the interest about the draft comment. You got my curiosity....

Thanks for the post. I found the comment about the draft most interesting.

History has repeatedly shown us that we will either take the gumption to affect such action or nature will force such actions upon us in a painful and unpleasant way.

We can either act or eventually be acted upon. We will either collapse as the soviets did, at the Germans did, as the Romans did... or we will change because situations force us to.

Thanks for your service.

One minor detail: by law, those here illegally ARE by definition criminals.

I don't have a problem with people seeking a better life, but I have a problem when they choose to go around the system in order to do the seeking. They are now prisoners of their own actions which other lawless people will take advantage of them for. You can't promote lawfulness by rewarding lawlessness.

Well said, AJ.

No. That is why we have problems with immigration in the first place: handouts. I have no problem with people coming here legally and earning their way to the American Dream. I have a BIG problem with people thinking that instead of creating their own dream they have the right to steal mine.

Indeed!! But I question, how many of us have the will power and gumption to affect such actions?

Thanks for posting.

Thanks for sharing. I agree with you.

It is my view that we need to remove most immigration laws and get back to what America has been. Come here if you want to be individually responsible for yourself, otherwise there is nothing here for you. The problem with that is our own culture has changed to that which you describe and it must change back to one of individual effort, value and reward if we are to attract only people who share those values.

My husband is foreign, so please bear in mind my prejudices (That's my disclaimer) :)

So many Americans want to blame foreigners for "taking" all the jobs. But my personal experience are that a large portion of foreigners are willing to work at jobs Americans don't want, for less pay than Americans will accept. A foreign person takes a job and is thankful for it. Yes, they might have to work two or three jobs to achieve the "American Dream" but they are willing to do the work. Americans won't take the job, want the company to pay more and give free health care, have the government support them while they wait for a higher paying job to come around, and wonder why they can't get ahead.

I understand there's a big difference between a foreigner and an illegal immigrant, and obviously this is an opinion with generalizations, but I believe we could learn a lot as a society from the work ethic (and gratefulness) of the foreign culture.

I tried to join in 1960 and again in 1962. I was rejected both times for "flat feet" and a "rupture". I got married, bought a house, got a job at Rocketdyne, got divorced in 1966, and almost immediately got a draft notice at age 24. Thinking they wouldn't actually take me, I drove to the induction center, downtown Los Angeles, parked my car in a pay lot, went in the front door, and was ordered to go out the back door and get on the bus to Fort Ord. Had to call my parents from half way up the coast to find my car and take it home. After Basic and AIT, signed up for an extra year to go to OCS, served following year at Fort Sill as Asst S3 in a 105mm Towed unit, went to Nam, as Battery XO of an 8" Howitzer and 175mm Gun Battery in Vietnam. Battery Commander got shot up, I became Btry CO as they had not enough officers to go around. Made if home in pretty good shape, lost some hearing, tinnitus, a little shrapnel (no Purple Heart - just a few scars), a few nightmares (lost 43 comrades from my and my sister unit), VA unacknowledged AO issues (respiratory issues, and Special Needs daughter), went to work for 3M for next 34 years, retired, woodworking hobbyist, build furniture hobby, self learning the piano, mostly classical. That is my life story.

Actually there is no difference between being drafted and volunteering. Once most military personnel are in, they would not trade the experience for anything in this world. I considered accepting an offered RA Commission and making a career of it, until I met Major Mxxxxxxxa, what an xxxxxxx, I stuck an M16 in his belly and almost killed him. My guys were egging me on, fortunately he walked away and we never saw each other again. That's when I made my decision to get out. I turned down my promotion to Captain.

Thanks everyone for the discussion.

I think it boils down to this. At some point we went from individualism to collectivism with strong twist of altruism in the country. If we were still individualist in our culture immigration would not generally be an issue.

Yes there would be the occasional person who wants to do harm to us, but for the most part those coming here would be doing so to build a better life for themselves, not in the hope to have someone else give them a better life.

Figure out a way to export the collectivists from our country, really the collectivist culture and import some good old pre civil war American individualism and immigration would not be an issue. Neither would most the issues we face today.

By enlarge they all have the same root cause. Collectivist mentality and culture. .

I agree, I was simply bringing up the point that we currently have an economy that people are pretty well fed in. It is not a problem, and wont be unless we keep trying to feed people who do not earn their food by the sweat of their own brow.

Thank you for fighting. Were you forced to do so (draft) or did you do so by your choice?

NOT OUR PROBLEM

I'll leave the details up to you if we decide to do it. I didn't have much of a choice when I took up arms in Nam, it was kill or be killed. Perhaps that might have something to do with my bold aggression.

yes, john

h2-inventors. they create ...out of thin air :)

there is always room for inventors...

1. How are you going to pay for that?
2. See #1

What you propose is not practice. Its just as financial impossible as those who think we are going to continue to feed and shelter every person who decides not to work for there food.

Have an idea we can actually do?

yes, if they are coming in to find the welfare state,
then they play themselves straight into the politicians'
scheme -- sad. . and importing + freeing criminals
is societal suicide. -- j

Best fed nation of the world. They would be better off here than anywhere else.

have you been to India, pretty much anywhere in africa or china? The very least fed people in the US do not even begin to see the kind of hunger much of the world sees.

Which is why we have to enforce the laws we have, build a clear fence to limit the danger on BOTH sides of the border and implement a simple program:
1) Get caught and you get tried.
2) Sentence is suspended IF you have a country of origin to be sent back to.
3) Send you back with the understanding that your second time back results in both present and past sentences being applied, consecutively.
4) Your family, your neighborhood, your work, and your friends all get investigated (who would shelter you?)
5) Anyone caught for illegal entry would be barred from EVER being a citizen, for any reason.
6) For every illegal alien from a given country that country is barred that many people from their country entering legally (or perhaps twice as many).

Illegal aliens are a danger to all of us, particularly to the neighborhoods they settle in.