Atlantis must be free 2

Posted by upston 10 years, 5 months ago to Philosophy
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Atlantis must be free part 2

Thanks to all who read or commented on part one. This forum separates itself from the majority in it’s thoughtful and polite responders. As I said in a response to J this concept of a Libertarian city state is real to me and not just some mind game or escapist diversion. Further the goal is not to hide from big brother or the looters in some jungle cultist enclave hoping to go unnoticed, I could do that by myself.

The goal is for a fully functional community, not to get away from it all but to take it all with us. To do that we need that most popular word in real estate form the 80s SYNERGY. A couple of hundred like minded colonists scratching out some kind of survivalist existence on a barren beach is romantic but after the first week or two just boring as hell.

To attract colonists all the basics of modern life are fundamental to success. First and foremost is security and safety, what young couple would put their children in danger by moving them to some waco cult in a distant land, a few perhaps but not the profile we need for a new beginning. We need schools and police and banks and retailers and utilities and doctors and home builders and farmers bla bla bla, the list of essential services is almost endless.

Another sticking point seems to be the “permission” factor. The concern is if given it can be take just as easily. In a thug society this is true, old Russian saying. Best form of government GOOD ZAR, worst form of government BAD ZAR. The whole point of this community is to prevent the looters from taking your stuff at the point of a gun . Permission voluntarily given by two parties or a CONTRACT is the root of all human progress.

Marriage was one of the first forms of contract, tribe A and tribe B would send an emissary to broker the girl and boy, perhaps a cow or two, in holy matrimony. Thus mixing the gene pool and promoting an alliance between the tribes, you can still behead and eat your cousin but it’s less likely. This is permission.

The world has long since divided up every inch of land and ocean so arriving on the beach and planting a flag claiming a hunk is no longer an option. Displacing a resident population by force would make us the very thugs we are complaining about. We need the permission of the current owner just as Midas Mulligan got permission via a land contract to buy the valley. Galt got permission from Mulligan in consideration for assets he provided IE the camo beam and the power generator. But he got PERMISSION from the legal owner as we must.

Perhaps a better objection is how do we enforce this contract, what remedies can protect us if the grantor wants to renege. Lets look at some history of similar agreements. Hong Kong is a small island in the South China Sea, the British needed some room to grow so leased Kowloon for 100 years from the Chinese. The colony grew into a powerhouse economy with five million citizens and one of the highest standards of living in the world. Till the commies showed up.
Like Hong Kong hundreds of duty free zones or trade zone or economic development zones have been created , usually waving all manner of taxes and regulations.. In 2003 93 countries has some kind of free trade zones with 93,000,000 workers benefiting. This is well established law and not likely to be challenged if executed properly.

Most of these trade zones are in developing countries where the promise of establishing opportunities for employment and to attract much needed capital investment is a pressing issue and that is the path of least resistance or maximum influence. Large first world governments will never give consent to a breakaway counter culture, counter to high taxes and tyrannical control. As the saying goes one bad apple spoils the whole barrel.

The competition I referred to would be among a hand picked group of well tenured sovereign democratic respected albeit small and some even unheard of nations. We would be granted our own free everything zone for a substantial one time cash prize for a suitable remote uninhabited location within the existing nation, hiding in plain sight. The permission or agreement would be voted on by the legislature and indorsed by the head of state. The first of the contestants to comply with our conditions would win the prize. Then the real fun begins.

How to finance this enterprise , set the terms and select the best five or six locations will be in part three but it’s as easy as falling of a log.


All Comments


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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Quite correct, Owlsrayne. The several of us who have been working on the Atlantis Project estimate a total around $20 MM, and we have no Midas Mulligan yet. A developer did just enter the Gulch recently. Regarding domes, freedomforall and I are scoping out AI Domes on Saturday. Freedom found out about it, but it's only 10 minutes from my house! I had passed by it for years and never given it a second thought.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    CG was actually quite interested in moving to Atlantis if it were near Daytona Beach.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm not a big fan of a homeowner's association. I would guess that roads would be private toll roads with the equivalent of a SunPass that you can refill when needed.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    We have looked at the Caribbean, several Pacific islands, several Central American countries (and their islands), and at Chile.
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  • Posted by Owlsrayne 10 years, 5 months ago
    This Atlantis Project will be a multimillion dollar effort. The biggest problem is finding someone or what ever to loan/donate the funds. We will have to approach building the immediate infrastructure like the Army did on the Pacific islands during WW2. As I had written before the best way is via ocean going freighter. I have have been doing consider research on rebuilding it into a multi-mission vessel and still look like a Tramp Steamer. I would have the work done in a Portuguese Shipyard which would look like a normal retrofit of an older vessel. The exact details I will furnish later. I still think if a large island can be bought in a reasonable climatic area would work. To do something in the United States would not be a workable solution. They're are some great idea's in Zoltan Istvan's book - Transhumanist Wager. We would have to be mindful of satellite spying particularly of the US gov'ts paranoia. All the work going on would have to be innocuous as possible. Any of the roads would have to be made of non heat radiating material. Once laid down would have to be camouflaged. Underwater detection equipment would have to be installed to monitor the approach of any undesirable guests. An Iron Dome System would have to be produced and purchased from Israel. Further out from the island a methane net system could be laid on the seabed to be used to sink unwanted ships in the area. So, you would have to choose an area which is owned out-right. Then, declaring it as a sovereign country some time when all the protective systems are in place. I don't think there is any country in the world who would want a sovereign country in their own country.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 10 years, 5 months ago
    Great idea, I am concerned there is not many oprtions where someone will not say they already own it. Look at what China has done in the South China sea, they just up and one day decide that they own it. How would you propose to protect Atlantis from such a power grab? Personally, I would prefer to just get off this rock and just go somewhere else, then you only have to contend with survival. Humanity has descended to such a corrupt level, I do not believe there is anywhere on earth you can set up shop, be free, and not have some dork come looking for you and tell you they own it.
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  • Posted by $ Genez 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I assumed there had been discussions I'd missed. I agree that government is not essential in providing these. Just looking at what the feasible alternatives might be. An HOA type organization in a neighborhood makes sense. Maybe a Merchants Association in a town center? All pay a portion to help maintain & clear roads and so on. I'd already assumed that items like power, communication, etc would be handled by providers who would provide their service for a fee, of course. Mail would be UPS, FEDEX or a facsimile of those... So all very feasible, but does take some planning.

    Personally I'm trying to determine what I could do in terms of tradable skill.. I am a regional planner at a mid size trucking company and while I'm good at what I do, planning and scheduling are important in a large scale operation but not as critical or needed in a smaller scale one. While some of my expertise in that area might be sellable, not sure it would feed me all the time. I like to garden so trying to learn more about various things to grow, crop production, cycles, etc..

    Climate is the other consideration I've seen discussed and would agree that it is VERY important in terms of being self sufficient. The more tropical the climate the easier it would be to grow much of the food you need...
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  • Posted by edweaver 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thought that was what you meant but was not sure so I asked. Now you earned the point from me. Hey, I speak smart a_ _ once in a while. LOL
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  • Posted by Temlakos 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In fact I've thought of three different models for upkeep of streets and roads, to give just one example.

    One could parcel out residential streets or take shared responsibility for them as a "common element." The residents could then take responsibility for having snow cleared from them. And I imagine that a Homeowners' Association could do a better job with that than the town.

    Merchants could take responsiblity for major thoroughfares. Why not? How else are they going to bring in customers and suppliers?

    Private operators could run highways and charge tolls. This goes back to when the word "turnpike" actually meant a private toll road. Or else, maybe a federation of long-haul shippers and "tourist attraction" keepers could keep up the highways, for the same reason a local merchant would pay his share to keep up a thoroughfare in town.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yeah, I did not quite get where you were coming from when I originally weighed in.
    When you asked me to explain, I was tempted to just smart off with "Well, someone gave that comment a point."
    I can clearly see the profit of resisting such stupid temptations.
    An understanding between us would not have been gained if I had taken that tack.
    Not resisting being stupid would have rendered me stupid.
    See? Even dinos can evolve.
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  • Posted by edweaver 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Makes sense. I would not think anyone supporting progressives would be welcome in Atlantis. My question was directed at CG because he does support the progressives and I wanted to see if he was coming around. No reply tells me he is not coming around so if he were going to Atlantis, I would not. :)
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I wouldn't support anything progressive but would be attracted to an Atlantis. Guess that would boil down to the average Gulcher.
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  • Posted by wiggys 10 years, 5 months ago
    Pipe dream. Concentrate on the possible not the im.
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  • Posted by term2 10 years, 5 months ago
    I find several TV series (that are now on neteflix btw) interesting to watch. "Walking Dead" can help in understanding how to deal with the destruction of the entire civilization as we know it. "Jericho" can help to understand the challenges inherent in the destruction of federal government and how it might go with just local government.

    I agree that an Atlantis would have to be self sufficient and not dependent on the looters, and would also have to be isolated so the looters didnt TAKE what it had. Defense and self-sufficiency would be paramount. It would be not far from the scenario in "walking dead", if you substitute existing governments and looters for the "zombies".
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  • Posted by $ puzzlelady 10 years, 5 months ago
    Having migrated many times in my life, I'm all for it and would pitch in with all my resources. Some requirements, though: 1. Must be independent and self-contained enough to be sanction-proof. 2. Must have desirable resources so no outside force will want to bomb it into oblivion. 3. Must have year-round good climate, not subject to natural disasters. 4. Must have state-of-the-art technology. Except for climate, Switzerland could be a model.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Atlantis would have to be at least its own state and likely a standalone country for people to want to move to it. I know the 250 mile limit regarding sovereignty.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Why when the discussion of the Gulch comes up I mention infrastructure... You don't need a dotgov to handle it; there are numerous examples of how a privatized infrastructure actually works (and has for decades). Whether it's handled in shares (like some water and power systems) where the consumer is the owner, their "bill" is the actual operating costs plus a return for each of them, or owned by a company and billed for use (such as the Autostrade in Italy...)
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  • Posted by edweaver 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sorry, I don't quite know what you mean. Not sure how autonomy gets a community around laws? Help??
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 10 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    These are all important items that several of us Atlanteans have considered. Your concerns are entirely correct.
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