Exactly so. I give to those I wish to. Just don't call me at home asking for money. I'm usually a very pleasant person, but not to telemarketers. }-p

You're right I guess, I probably am still a bit conditioned. Give me time. :)

I was more referring to those utterly incapable of looking after themselves though. I'd gladly donate money to them of my own free will.

A looter without a dole cheque on the other hand, has to find another way. Necessity is the mother of invention after all.

Okay I see your point & I'm not disagreeing with you as such.

Nor am I suggesting that others' needs trump your rights. Right now however, I doubt that many families would be able to survive let alone afford necessary treatments for those whom may be in their care, without the aid of welfare.

The closest thing we have to Rand's idea of government in Great Britain is UKIP (UK Independence Party). If they win the next election (I doubt they will), they will begin to undo the Socialist agenda piece by piece. Two of UKIP's primary goals are to pull the UK out from the bureaucratic control of Europe, & reduce the size of government. It will likely take them years to effect these changes & restore individual rights. The UK & the US are completely tangled up with laws brought in under Socialist government & lobbying. It will take a long time to untangle that mess. It would be impossible to scrap the welfare system overnight as so many & so much relies upon it right now. To attempt to do so would be suicide. It must be thought out & dealt with rationally. Things are likely to get a lot worse before desparation begs for rationality to rule the day.

Meanwhile, according to the Cloward Piven Strategy, it appears to me that the Left are willing to sacrifice the sick, disabled & elderly for the greater good.

Those types of charities used to exist before government got into the business of taxation and entitlements. They would reappear again if we weren't FORCED to donate to charities unknown (via taxes)...Americans are givers, but they don't like their money wasted so it would be a much more efficient process to privatize charities not just charge up a welfare debit card and let the moochers spend on unnecessary purchases. It would be to meet NEEDS only, not habits and bling. Joss, you sound a bit conditioned in your thinking that people wouldn't survive....instead of thinking if they don't survive it's of their own free will.

I have a right for my property not to be taken from me against my will - even if it would be used in the cause of the truly needy. I think we're on the same page there.

Where we are NOT on the same page is you're willing to let my rights be violated until such time as a fairer system is setup.

I argue you're wrong about this. If my human rights are being violated, it needs to stop NOW. Why should I wait? Am I guaranteed my rights to property or not? You appear to be saying others needs trumps my rights - and that's where the whole problem lies.

I also believe the charities you're describing do exist. They are called "family" and "friends" and "church".

I also do NOT believe if we removed the welfare state we would be destroying "the only means of survival" of a single individual.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE4Prdrmi...

I recall Rand speaking about this genuine 'need' & saying that under a Capitalist system, charities would be set up to deal with such need, which we the capable would donate to of our own free will. I don't believe such charities exist as yet, therefore destroying the only means of survival for those in need is thoughtless of the left.

Not what I'm saying at all. There's a difference between genuine need & looting.

So - you care about them more than me?

Interesting article. Not heard of Cloward Piven Strategy until now. I get the idea though. I too think it would be wrong to aid the collapse of the welfare state, although perhaps for different reasons to OA.

For one thing, there are many people who genuinely need help - disabled, orphans, the elderly etc. These people would be screwed without a 'system' to take care of them. Love it or hate it, the welfare system is what they have for now - thus for the Left to destroy the welfare system out of rabid hatred for Capitalism is completely thoughtless & utterly cruel.

Hello BlueNova,

You are correct. Most of us are very familiar with Cloward and Piven. Some on this board have even suggested that we should adopt some of the principles in order to facilitate/ accelerate the collapse. I am of the opinion this is so distasteful and contrary to objectivist principles that I cannot agree. The lessons learned would be counterproductive.