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WE HAVE UNDERVALUED OURSELVES

Posted by Zenphamy 10 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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In almost any discussion of the benefits of Objectivism, I'm continually confronted with the argument that it's bad to be selfish, to take pride in self or in accomplishment or achievement, that it's the team not the individual. I've always had difficulty with the culture of humility and humbleness and the opinion that people that don't obey are bad.

In this article by Paul Rosenburg, he puts forth a discussion of where much of that belief arises from:

"But whatever motivated the adults of my youth, they were mostly wrong – it’s not our overvaluation of ourselves that is the real problem; it’s our undervaluation.

Here is a passage from G.K. Chesterton’s The Defendant that makes this argument:

There runs a strange law through the length of human history — that men are continually tending to undervalue their
environment, to undervalue their happiness, to undervalue themselves. The great sin of mankind, the sin typified by the fall of
Adam, is the tendency, not towards pride, but towards this weird and horrible humility.

I think Chesterton was entirely correct, and I think we have all been surrounded by, and influenced by, a “weird and horrible humility.”

Most of us, most of the time, fear making errors, think about our failures and deficits, and live in a sea of guilt. Not only is this dark self-image unnecessary, but it degrades us and is built upon falsehoods.

We are, since childhood, trained to view ourselves as dangerous creatures, teetering on the edge of error and harm. We absorb these ideas through what currently passes as “law” and by parts of modern religion… particularly the doctrine of “original sin.”

Even the definition of “good” is held to be “selflessness,” which clearly maintains that “self” is bad.

Bear in mind that I’m not saying all humans are good. Clearly, some of them are violent and vile. But these are a small minority, and we should not lump normal people in with them."

Can those taught to doubt themselves and maintain humility ever understand Objectivism or an Objectivist?


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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ah, selflessness within the contexts of Zen awareness and meditation is something that most westerners have a good deal of difficulty with because they conflate that term with the meanings assigned within the west, I agree. But as for a job well done, self satisfaction should be combined with enough pride in one's self to expect payment as well and confidence in one's abilities shouldn't be denigrated as arrogance and egoism by the collectivist or the weak and meek minded. Adulation doesn't seem to fit either Zen or Objectivism.

    A healthy mind is confident, is self aware, does seek self satisfaction through achievement, does expect honest payment for accomplishment, does not waste effort in false humility, or accept other's standards or assigned limitations, and can expect respect of proven ability and individual natural rights.
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  • Posted by gtebbe 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    blarman, I think you are spot on. There is a publication I believe everyone here should consider; Critical Thinking: Tools for Taking Charge of Your Professional and Private Life. Richard W. Paul and Linda Elder. The text presents very powerful tools for survival that every conservative needs, especially in this time in history.

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  • Posted by gtebbe 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What about this "radical" Islam mentality? They send a pretty strong message about how you will live your life. Getting your head cut off because you've offended someone's interpretation of a particular line in their Quran: This is not religion; this is terrorism at its very basic level.

    I could be wrong, though.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes O.A., live and learn. But for many, dare to learn is something that should be taught. IMHO
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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 10 years, 9 months ago
    Hello Zenphamy,
    Excellent thread and some fantastic comments.
    I have never worried about the mistakes I have made. I have learned much, perhaps more from my mistakes, but if one never makes attempt one learns nothing. I can often tell someone that I do not know the proper or best course of action, but I certainly know what courses of action were futile, or worse, detrimental. Live and learn, but dare to live!
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 10 years, 9 months ago
    The concept of "humility" has not been static over the centuries. In the Middle Ages, "humility" was closer to what we would think of as an 'enlightened self-assessment' - an objective evaluation of your self worth, including both your strengths and your weaknesses. It took some of its definition from a contrast with the mandatory braggadocio of the tribal-level societies that dominated northern Europe at that time, and tried to portray an acceptable set of social behavior that did not require unfounded arrogance as a basis for a dominant position. Thus, a 'humble' King Arthur could be freed from the tribal ritual of alpha boasting and yet retain a dominant social position.

    Now, 'humility' and 'submission' have been conflated into a single dubious virtue and we have lost the positive aspects of 'being humble'. When you read literature that endorses humility, it is handy to consider 'when' it was written and 'what' the quality called "humility" meant to the writer.

    Jan
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  • Posted by BradA 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I cannot actually remember a time when I cared about what other people thought of me. Which is maybe why when I finally discovered Ayn's works that they came to me as affirmations, not revelations.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's a great question, but gets very heavily into theology and religion. I will try to remain as objective as possible in explaining.

    There are two ways one can look at where we came from: that we always existed (conservation of matter/energy) and that this is simply another form, or that we at some point were brought into existence. Even deists fall into different camps here. I personally subscribe to the original notion that there is conservation of intelligence, but that our present form does not include a remembrance of anything prior to this.

    Why is this important? Because where we came from has an undeniable impact on where we are and hints at the potential of where we can go from here.

    And where can we go?

    Here is another of those philosophical questions that is a fundamental divide between atheists and deists. I haven't met an atheist who believes in an afterlife, and I haven't met a deist who doesn't, but that fundamental belief colors EVERY decision about the evaluation of potential for the future. If the atheists are correct and nothing exists past this life, then we need only be concerned about living this life. If intelligence persists, however, and death is merely a doorway out of a temporary state, then suddenly we must then evaluate whether the choices we make now will influence what comes after. Though they may disagree as to the afterlife and its specifics, I am not aware of a deist religion that does NOT hold that decisions here in this life are not absolutely critical to the pathways open to us in the next - thus understanding where we came from and where we want to get to have an enormous influence upon the choices we make now. Presupposing that there are qualifications or standards which must be met for certain pathways in the hereafter - which we do not control - it is only then up for us to decide whether or not attainment of such is 1) within our power and 2) of utility to us.

    The supposition in your question is that man can decide for himself both where he wants to go AND how he gets there. While that may be somewhat true for this life, it is not the case for anything beyond. Thus knowing what is beyond and the standards for such allow us to make an informed decision.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's all in the definition, isn't it? Selflessness isn't equivalent to altruism, even though both terms have been ennobled in the collectivist view. Being a "pure" Objectivist is sort of like Zen Buddhism, avoiding the pitfalls of ego and arrogance in order to approach each challenge with the intent to simply use the best of our talents. Self-satisfaction with a job well done should be praise enough. That much pride is OK, I think. Seeking the adulation of others is really a collectivist way of thinking.
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I didn't grow up overly "religious" but I know what you mean.

    Some people approach the Bible as a concrete instead of an abstraction and I think that approach invites "religious governance".

    Once in awhile an opportunity arises where I can ask direct questions about that approach and am usually met with positive results.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Is it that, or is it that we don't recognize 'church' or 'religion' as a form of governance?
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  • Posted by teri-amborn 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes. That's why the Pharisees were always in trouble with Jesus. They used the guise of religious obedience to rule over the masses.

    Washington uses the same tactics, we just don't think of Washington as a"church" or "religion".
    Same abstraction, different concrete.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Dr; I must say that for myself the difference between selflessness and pride is very strong. Selflessness is impossible for me since it negates my mind and my achievements.
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    blarman; But isn't the point of the article, that others want to establish the guide or standard on us and isn't that just another demand for us to follow their rules and obey?

    Where does man's inherent drive to explore and determine his own standard fit into your description?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    teri; Yes, but is religion's intent to also rule us in the guise of guiding us? Isn't that the goal of nearly all of societal hierarchal systems?
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  • Posted by 10 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly jim, and we are at that point of it being impossible 'for men to live without breaking laws.'
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  • Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 9 months ago
    I think that one of the most difficult things to understand is ourselves. In order to attempt to do so, we must consider our past, our present, and our future. We must look at where we are and where we have been to chart a course for where we want to be, but without the context of a guide or standard, these become essentially meaningless.

    That is the struggle of life: to identify where we came from, where we are now, where we would like to go from here, and how we are going to get there.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 10 years, 9 months ago
    And what's with the crazy sense of obligation people have who can't say "no"?
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