Home/personal security vs. national security/immigration - A philosophical discussion

Posted by $ jbrenner 7 years, 11 months ago to Philosophy
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About a year ago, I met a man who had just moved in with a female friend down the street. The man had served his jail time, but was on a sexual predator list. Some neighbors tried to fundraise throughout our neighborhood to build a community play set, with the explicit intent to force this man to move out (because he would have been in violation of sexual predator laws). Without my money, the play set was built, and the man moved out.

Since then, I have thought a lot about a) the presumption of innocence, b) whether that presumption should apply to people outside my country, especially when such people are from countries for which background checks are of questionable veracity, c) what the philosophical basis (or bases) is for the presumption of innocence are.

If someone moves to my neighborhood, does that constitute an actionable threat? I think not, but I am willing to listen to the counterarguments.

What if a stranger sits in his car in the street in front of my house? What if that stranger parks in my driveway or knocks on the front door? Think about how you react when you hear your doorbell when you are not expecting visitors.

What do you do for your personal and home security? Do you own a gun (or guns)? Do you have a dog that would be considered threatening to people who ring your doorbell? Do you have a home security system? Can you hit an alarm button manually? Is that alarm very loud or silent?

Now consider people coming to your country. How much does it matter whether or not the visitor's past is verifiable? Is it reasonable to let that person in without interviewing that person carefully?

Does a person's philosophy (or faith?) matter? Especially if a person's faith says that it is OK to lie to infidels in order to accomplish larger objectives? Can persons of faith be reasoned with?

On the other hand, is it worthwhile interacting with non-Objectivists with the hope that such people might eventually change? Should such situations be viewed as opportunities, threats, both, or neither?

Just checking my premises...


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  • Posted by Maritimus 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would like to add a real life story. About ten years ago, while I was still running my business, we had decided to add, in a second facility, about 875 miles away from the "headquarters", a highly sophisticated analytical technique. We had the instrument and needed a qualified operator. A gentlemen responded to our add. He had come back to live with his parents. PhD chemist, who served a prison term because his wife accused him an "inappropriate contact" with one of their daughters. A judge sentenced him and, in the prison, a priest led him to deep religious belief. He told me this entire story in the first interview. I was impressed with his abilities. I decided to hire him.

    We brought him to the "headquarters" and trained him. He is now one of the leading experts in the world in this kind of analysis. He married another woman, adopted her two daughters and has excellent relationships with his daughters from the first marriage.

    May be that I was just lucky, but I am glad that I made that hiring decision. Needless to say, I would do it again in such circumstances.

    Lesson: you have to carefully evaluate all the information that you have and take a risk.

    EDIT: removed extraneous words.
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  • Posted by DrZarkov99 7 years, 11 months ago
    The sexual predator tag is iffy at best, lacking information. A male/female 18 years old who has consensual sex with a 15 year old can be charged with statutory rape and labeled a sexual predator. That person is no threat to anyone. Unfortunately that person is categorized the same way as a serial, habitual pedophile, who is a definite threat to neighborhood minors (pedophiles are among the worst recidivist criminals). There needs to be a change to how that tag is applied, so that the real serious threats can be culled from the harmless offenders.

    I have an old fashioned security system, hard-wired, with battery backup and an encrypted cellphone connection to emergency services. It can't be hacked, like the fancier wireless systems, and cutting phone lines or power doesn't bypass it. The alarm is high decibel, and can wake the dead.

    We have the means to observe people at the door without opening it, and it is secure from being kicked in. Having a threatening looking dog isn't necessary. My standard poodles could be quite menacing if necessary, and most career criminals say it isn't the threat, but the noise of a barking dog that usually stops a break-in. Even a tiny yorkie yapper alerts the home to intruders, and the element of surprise is lost.

    I believe everyone should have the means for self protection. I adhere to the dictum that when harm is seconds away, the police will be there in minutes. The type of weapon varies, but it should be easy to operate, and effective enough at short range to discourage an intruder. For those squeamish about shooting someone, there are very potent multi-shot pepper or CS gas dispensers at a reasonable price.

    If I believe someone poses a threat, I don't care what sex, color, politics, or religion they are. I will act to protect my family. As for refugees, I believe they should be judged on the same basis as those seeking legal immigration, and I believe we should apply the same conditions as most other successful nations: the candidate has to prove they can support themselves, and not become an immediate burden on our economy.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If Australia weighed talent ahead of age, i would be living there. They have to protect their socialist health system from people over 45. Unless you have pull (or lots of money) you do not qualify for Aussie immigration if you are over 45.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "We should not treat a religious person as a criminal unless he's making criminal threats." ... unless the "religion" is Islam, which glorifies lying and murder in the name of "allah".
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 7 years, 11 months ago
    You ask a number of questions and while my answers would vary depending on my living situation, Apartment living verse rural living. I can only answer for my current situation. Since I currently live in a VERY rural situation a stranger parking within 1/4 mile of my house would perk my attention. As I live quite a long distance behind a cattle gate down a private road. If my doorbell were to sound unexpectedly. I would answer the door by stepping out the back door with my most convenient gun and circle around to the front to meet them from behind. Of course if I lived in an apartment my sense of boundaries would have to be greatly adjusted and that's why I choose to live as I do.

    As tpo your questions concerning immigrants. I would prefer to take a position of cautious optimism. Screen them as best as possible, deny the obvious villains, keep close track on all accepted immigrants, deport ALL who seem to pose a threat and execute any proven dangerous.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 11 months ago
    You ask a difficult question. On the one hand, you have the responsibility to protect and on the other you have the presumption of innocence. It's not an easy balance to weigh. From (https://www.smart.gov/SOMAPI/sec1/ch5..., recidivism among sexual predators is around 5%, but they note that many sexual crimes - indeed the majority - are never reported and only 10% result in arrests. Given the heinous nature of the crimes involved, it is easy to see how passions become inflamed on the matter.

    Personally, I think that convicts who have properly paid their "debt to society" and served their sentence should be allowed back into society, but I make several observations I believe relevant:

    1. Our prison systems are doing a lousy job of actually helping convicts reform. We currently re-arrest more than 50% of criminals within the first year following their release. (https://www.nij.gov/topics/correction...) We should be demanding better from our prison system. But we run into a problem there because change requires incentive and acceptance of personal responsibility most easily effected by religion, and we have largely removed mandatory religious counseling from our prisons.

    2. Our social laws are doing a lousy job of teaching and encouraging positive behaviors. Statistics continue to show that those most likely to end up in prison are those without a father in the home. Yet society passes laws that encourage the welfare state and a lack of responsibility in men to care for their offspring.

    3. Those released from prison need a support system to prevent recidivism. Gangs exist to glorify incarceration and encourage more law-breaking behavior. The only way to defeat the gangs is to provide an alternative support structure to released convicts that can help them re-adjust to real life in society. And only the religious community seems able and willing to take on this role.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree with the Australian model. The "refugee" status claim is an attempt to make me respond to someone else's need. It will not work.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Then theirs is the burden of proof for entry. They are petitioning for entry and thus must be the ones to make their own case. I agree with freedomforall that they should submit their productive talents for consideration (Australia weighs this quite heavily). But I don't necessarily agree with just letting anyone claiming "refugee" status into the nation. We want Americans - not just anyone and everyone.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Weigh that risk of the unknown against the applicant's productive talents and against the other applicants with similar talents (and known low risk backgrounds), and consider the potential for harm if you are wrong. It is the government's job to protect the sovereign people from enemies, not to take undue risks to benefit immigrants with unknown backgrounds and unknown philosophy.
    The sovereign people should also be held to a higher standard before being allowed to vote. There should be a waiting period for immigrants and a test for understanding the issues and American philosophy before anyone is allowed to vote but that is a different can of worms.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 7 years, 11 months ago
    Some think there should be open borders. I do not.
    If you do not agree with open borders, then you must rationally decide what factors are desirable and what factors are undesirable. Open movement between the states is desirable, so the rules for immigration must be uniform for all states. No state (nor the executive or judicial branches of the federal government) should be allowed to weaken the immigration standards established by the US congress or to selectively choose not to enforce them.
    No small community should be selected to receive the settlement of immigrants in excess of an amount per capita to the US population.
    Quicker resettlement of refugees from war zones should not be a factor used to determine if an immigrant is worthy when compared to immigrants from other locales.
    Yes, an immigrant person's philosophy is a valid factor to consider and his choice of religion is part of his philosophy.
    A very high degree of security vetting should be required for all immigrants.
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  • Posted by $ 7 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I definitely agree with you on the sexual predator lists, and I think I agree with you on all points.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 7 years, 11 months ago
    I think the predator lists are wrong. If someone has done his time, the gov't should not intentionally stigmatize him. We tend to be too paranoid about these people. A free society needs people to be armed and brave. We should not treat someone who's done his time for a crime unless he's openly threatening to do it again. We should not treat a religious person as a criminal unless he's making criminal threats.

    Regarding reacting with religious or irrational people, IMHO most rational people have at least some irrationality and vice versa. I think irrationality, esp little tricks where people think they've reasoned something but are actually doing post hoc rationalization, is more common than it seems.
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