Objectivism and Homosexuality
Posted by BalphEubank 12 years, 5 months ago to The Gulch: General
With Maine, Minnesota and Washington passing legislation supporting same sex gay marriage, I thought we should revisit what Ayn Rand had to say on the topic: "It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting."
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 4.
Sinful (misintegration)
"I don't care what you say, God told me my wheat will grow in clay!"
I Use the word "Evil" when reality is ignored and then faked to take any value from another:
"You better accept Jesus and Tithe or your gonna die!"
What two people do behind closed doors is their business. I'm even for partnerships or civil unions. However, do I support gay "Marriage", in the commonly understood Christian sense? NO. Why? It's a sacrament from God. Not mine, not any church either. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Got a problem with it? Complain to God. Don't believe in God? That's fine too, but don't boo-hoo to me about laws established by Him. There are many passages in the Bible but here's one that really stands out IMO: 1 Corinthians 7:2, " But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband." For anyone who believes Christians are "bad" or "not tolerant" of the homosexual "lifestyle" here's a couple of other nuggets of info to ponder:
Even Mohammed, Islam's prophet said, "When a man mounts another man, the Heaven's quake." Oh, in Iran, the Gov't (Shariah Compliant BTW) HANG gays in the street. Keep these things in mind before the bashing of Christian "intolerance" starts. Finally, Yuri Besmenov (now-deceased, defected, former KGB officer) said, 'Whenever sexual orientation becomes political (implying homosexuality) that's Communism'. Not an exact quote. But I will post a link so you can see/hear for yourself.
I wish my social studies teacher in HS would have offered up baseball (he was a coach even) instead of movies on evil south africa. Maybe then, the whole world might have questioned whether Mr. Mandela was a saint or a murderer.
It appears you want to take out some anger on me when I am 100% against ANYONE coercing YOU to loose your values to my benefit!
I really don't know how to make that any clearer...
I think we are really on the same side but you appear (it just FEELS this way to me) to be psycho-epistemologically caught up in some kind of homophobic indoctrination. Probably Biblical based.
Science is nothing without prediction.
Therefore I predict and angrier response and an ad hominem attack.
I am curious as to why you are responding? Is it egoic glorification (that is partially true for me) or do you honestly wish to know the universe, your place in it and the truth about reality? (my absolute highest motivation)
I believe the latter is true and in perfect unison with the fact that man is NOT evil, as you are using your virtue and drive to seek information or change something, regardless if it is making you angry.
Thanks for proving that you ARE heroic by responding and that man is NOT a wicked sinful being.
I know most of you aren't used to people speaking this way. But I am not being cynical or sarcastic.
When I exemplify men (and women of course) I am deadly serious that I hold ones heroism in the highest regards.
As rugged individualists, we have a common enemy. You wish to undo the damage they have done. It'll never happen. I wish to help them finish the job they started 2000 years ago. That's the only way to be rid of them.
My gripe, and it's minor, is gays always have to announce their oriententation and then discuss, debate, ,argue, quibble, and literally beat the subject to death. Then, if you don't get the satasfaction of 100% agreement you brand others as "right mystics, Christians and Kantian reality disintegrating liberals that call themselves democrats and republicans." It seems that gays are itching for a fight which rarely comes because most people are threaten by legislation that prevent them from saying what they have a constitutional right to say and believe. That's "The Argument from Intimidation" on steroids, and has left anyone that dare to disagree with you a sitting duck.
Before you "shame" me, I can assure you that I never accepted "original sin", and I'll never accept unearned guilt. I'm immune.
The ideal man has many faces
Personally, my partner and I could care less about these ridiculous social titles, but we are certainly the exception to the rule. Obviously, most of us here seem to agree the Government should NOT be involved with this whatsoever.
The biggest problem I have in our collectivist culture are the explosion of regulations, taxes, tariffs, fees and legal disarming that is making it very difficult for my partner and I to live and produce any values.
We are making plans "to Shrug"...
This has NOTHING to do with being gay. It has everything to do with suppression of the individual rights and protections we should all enjoy.
I appreciate the fact that you hold a reasoned position on homosexuality. I didn’t get into too much of Ayn Rands personal life. I know that Frank was pretty disturbed by her relationship with Nathaniel Branden…. Thinking of it in your theoretical light seems rather interesting. Perhaps this is why Ayn thought homosexuality was “disgusting”.
Although, I recently watched some old media footage of the early gay movement and the most flamboyant and dramatically expressive were the centers of attention, over the “nice average guy next door type of gay male”. The media portrayed gays in a terrible light.
You’ll find I try to get right to the conceptual roots and build the necessary concretes (existence / consciousness) up through the abstractions (morality /ethics). These conversations tend to become sweeping generalizations if we are not careful. I will also point out the philosophical paths that lead one to “emotional reasoning” / heuristic and deductive reasoning as well as Aritstotellian logic and its supporters.
Some media examples: Al Franken, Bill O’Rielly, Anne Coulter, Rush Limbaugh etc. are exemplary performers of Misintegration, deduction and heuristic logic promotion.
They all sound very reasonable, until you shine the light of epistemology on their deontological premises and their edifice quickly crumbles. Most people don’t know what epistemology is or what deontology is.
The entire problem is that people wish to hang on to their knee-jerk “yuck” reaction based on their feelings and an unexplored, unintegrated “philosophical hash”; then engage their mob to impede (or perhaps kill) an individual that doesn’t agree with – what’s the new word?- Ah yes, “Resonate” with his deductions…
My point regarding the Internet was really to mark the significance in intellectual emergence that was otherwise held back from all but the elite classes for over 2000 years. of Judeo-Christian indoctrination. Knowledge was very expensive to the average westerner until the 20th century. As such, the art of reason, integration and induction has never been instilled for the average westerner; only memorization and factual regurgitation of lists.
This left mans emotions detached from his intellect and value judgments. When man looses his own ability to judge he must rely on authority. This process has lead directly to the horrors we are experiencing today. And it was the same process that allowed the Weimar Republic to sway millions of intelligent people to sadistically and viciously murder their brothers and sisters.
This process was reached emotionally by the application of deontological (duty-centered) philosophies, not by “reason” but by a string of logical errors.
The problem is that premise of original sin. It was one of a number of “concept-killers”
Like ‘duty’ or ‘spirituality’, ‘divine rights’ etc. It has no basis in reason other than feelings supported by authoritarian confirmation or mob-rule.
For my post above, I wished to respond to itisntluck and his hasty generalizations of me as an individual and his broad-sweeping knee-jerk responses and slippery slopes, like Aids etc. lumping gay people in more “us and them” derision. I think if he reads my posts he’ll discover that I am more conservative than a conservative. This is MY life –not Gods, and Not the States.
For the record I think my partner and I are the only Gay objectivists and I am probably in the top 3 % of those who understand and can articulate the philosophy.
Unfortunately, that leaves us in our own little bubble of diametric opposition to the majority of the extremely, liberal democratic-mob-rule gay community.
We just ended a gay friendship over the anti-conceptual premise of duty-centered ethics.
I will not support, defend or befriend anyone who believes I have a metaphysical duty to anyone other than myself and my loved-ones under shared agreeable terms.
I will defend all of your lives up and to the point when you demand the sacrifice of my intellect, virtue, time, energy, values or property to be redistributed to another without my consent.
An individual can only reach ethics and morals by choosing to live here and now as “there is no argument that can take a man from this world to a supernatural, superior realm” somewhere or: Mysticism
I think itisntluck is pissed as hell over being mooched, looted and parasitically bled dry. I am too. I know that if battle lines were drawn, I’d be on itisntluck’s side.
It’s too bad that things I see things so black and white but we are desperately running out of time until the west collapses. We simply do not have the luxury to engage in moral grayness, debate meta-ethics and embrace political correctness and coddling people’s feelings.
Our time is running out.
I am not asking you or anyone to pay for anything. I want the current mob-rule, might-makes- right mystics, Christians and Kantian reality disintegrating liberals that call themselves democrats and republicans to learn how to think and get the hell out of my way!
I am appalled at the growing rate of government regulation and strangleholds. I have always been a self-employed value-producer. I am a constitutional Libertarian in accordance with the Aristotelian path of philosophy from John Locke through me.
There is a fine distinction between reason and knee jerk emotionalism and the pseudo –deductive logic the group embraces as “common sense”. Notice how it is not called “common reason”. Remember there is a very old very hard wired emotional brain at play here.
First you started with a weak ad hominem attack, “Don’t think you’re so special”.
To make such an assertion must rest on a claim of superior knowledge. By default your violating your own moral standard of “special”. What is this superior knowledge then? God? You now bear the oneness of proof for that one… Good luck.
Interesting.
I KNOW that I am a totally unique cause and identity in reality. Do you? And the Universe has uniquely given me the ability to reflect on the universe and myself.
Did you realize that you do this too? We have something in common then don’t’ we?
Something exists and YOU KNOW IT. Therefore you and I and everyone else is moral before a value judgment can be made on an individuals actions across time.
All you have is the cause and identity and they cannot contradict themselves, therefore
A is A.
This can be the only concrete to build a moral edifice upon. Everything else requires mob-rule and revelation. Every step past identification of the first premise to act upon, requires an examination of that particular moment in time and the event associated to determine the broader abstractions of a “moral outcome”.
I am AS unique as the universe itself and so are YOU! If you are still hanging on to that persistent, threadbare bromide of “original sin”, then shame on you. If you embraced that, you cut yourself off from your own reason: the most abominable “sin” in my opinion.
The continuing disintegration of reason and embracing of anti-reason, anti-philosophy, and anti-man is much more profound and far-reaching effects then AIDS.
It will be very clear to those who wish to read my threads that me must learn what philosophy means, how to use and think critically. We were cut off from this moment literally until Google emerged with the Internet.
We have over 2000 years of indoctrination to undo. Time to wake up.
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