Objectivism and Homosexuality

Posted by BalphEubank 12 years, 5 months ago to The Gulch: General
118 comments | Share | Best of... | Flag

With Maine, Minnesota and Washington passing legislation supporting same sex gay marriage, I thought we should revisit what Ayn Rand had to say on the topic: "It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting."

What do you guys think?


All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 5.
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by no1laserjock 12 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. I don't want any mob ganging up on me, and using the government’s guns to extort my values. Even if it is your needy child! Sorry but I shouldn't have to pay via taxation for people who continue to breed more ignorant, infirm, and drug-addicted babies. If I find your family and your infirm children to be particularity charming I would be pleased to lend a hand If get something out of it too. But stop extorting my values as well for your mob-rule theistic, delusional Christian agenda or the disintegrated liberal agenda of nirvana which is composed of any entitlement imaginable, a secure padded cel, a feeding tube, SOMA Drip and 3D Hi Def Surround sound media.

    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    OH! That has been my argument all along. Call it something else because they aren't the same. They should have all the same legal "responsibilities" and "benefits" etc, that's not my issue. However, I doubt that will ever happen because it will be seen as "unfair" somehow to call it something other than marriage.
    Hmmm now I'm wondering about Frank... lol
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "The continuing disintegration of reason and embracing of anti-reason, anti-philosophy, and anti-man is much more profound and far-reaching effects then AIDS."
    this is the only sentence I understood. oh, and the Google thing- btw, google didn't come up with the internet. method of ranking search results. but I digress, can you sum all that up in a few sentences so us mortals can understand them? Since I don't buy that homosexuality is a belief system, I don't understand the basis of the discussion. I disagree with Rand on suggesting homosexuality is less than an ideal man. btw, I bet Frank was gay. I remember this interview with Charles and Mary talking about the closeness between Rand and OConner., but really all I got out of it was the closeness between OConner and Charles. This is just my theory. For me, it's the marriage deal. States changing laws that offer special provisos for some. My thing is call it something else. Marriage already has a definition. But I understand the importance of legal protections for couples and families.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment deleted.
  • Posted by itisntluck 12 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    no1laserjock, do as you wish but don't think you are special. I resent the gay movement blaming Ragan and everyone else that isn't a flaming liberal for the AIDS epidemic. You want to be free to do what ever the hell it is you do, but then you want to send me the bill. Fugetaboutit. You'll never get another dime out of me.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by RayShelton 12 years, 4 months ago
    Near the end of her life, Dr. Binswanger asked AR about the quote cited above. He asked her if she held her earlier view of homosexuality.

    AR said that she no longer considered homosexuality immoral. This is the reason that the above quote was left out of _Ayn Rand Answers_.

    Dr. Mayhew and Dr. Peikoff wanted that book to reflect AR's most up-to-date and considered thinking. They wanted it to reflect views that AR held at the end of her life. Also, one must remember that AR was talking off of the top of her head. She wasn't giving a considered, written statement. AR thought that the spoken word and the written were in two different categories in regard to setting down one's beliefs.

    (I know the above because of direct conversations I had with professors Mayhew, Peikoff, and Binswanger on exactly this issue.)

    In the end, homosexuality is an issue of psychology not philosophy. And Objectivism has nothing to say in this regard. Thus, there is no conflict between the two.

    As to marriage, in a free society it would be a private contract that the state had nothing to do with except to recognize the registered contract.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by jln 12 years, 5 months ago
    It doesn't really matter whether homosexuality is a conscious choice, a personality trait or something else. The only thing that matters is this: is someone using force to make someone else to do something he/she does not want to do? As long as the answer is "No", then it really does not concern you, me, Ayn Rand nor the government what happens between consenting adults.

    Sure you, me and Ayn Rand along with other individuals are entitled to have an opinion on if we think it's disgusting or awesome, like everyone is free to have an opinion on if surfing is disgusting or awesome, though in civil conversation it is usually better to keep matters of taste to yourself unless specifically asked. It only becomes a problem if some people start to think that their way is the only way and try to prevent others from doing something just because they don't happen to like it, usually using the government as enforcer.

    As for gay marriage: Marriage is essentially a contract between two people. Again, it is not for the government or anyone else to concern themselves on what kind of contracts consenting adults choose to make.

    The problem is that for some reason the government has decided to give special treatment to this one type of contract: taxation and certain social benefits work differently whether you happen to be married or not. This should not be, your relationship status should not really affect on how the government treats you.

    However, as long as government gives special treatment to this one type of contract, then at least it should be equally available to everyone and people should be able to choose freely with whom they wish to make that contract, regardless of sex.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by no1laserjock 12 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am gay, and I do not give a damn about the governments legal sanction of my life. This is about taxation without representation. Many (theists in particular) wish to enjoy the benefits of my tax dollars but simultaneously wish to sweep me aside as a second class citizen. They enjoy a myriad of irrational altruistic-point-of-the-gun government benefits that we do not. I do not want "special rights", but I do want individual rights and to not be treated with prejudice in the application of my rights.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by no1laserjock 12 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What about hermaphrodites? Are they an abomination? What should be done with "abominations"? {what does the post office have to do with this?}
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by no1laserjock 12 years, 5 months ago
    On this issue Ayn Rand has left the sphere of her integrations in favor of emotional misintegrations. I am a gay “objectivist” philosopher but I am expanding the philosophy to incorporate other fields of science. Theists and Philosophers often have a tendency to disregard other disciplines and thus fail to integrate other fields involving human behavior –like evolution, human behavioral psychology, human behavioral evolution, Psychiatry, Psychology, neuroscience and Biology for instance. These also must be taken into consideration when examining and understanding human behavior. Human behavior is not exclusively guided by frontal lobes philosophical thought. The brain has evolved with ancient, reptilian, mammalian and primate, physical areas as well. These areas of the brain must also be considered as well as evolution and genetic influences. Inherent in Ayn Rands paraphrased statement /assertion: "It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting." There are a number of problems (and I wont dig any deeper than this) that beg her (feelings-based) premise: 1. One must assume that all humans are exclusively male and female whom possess perfectly functional brains with no variations (maybe she mistakenly believed this) to reach the emotional value-judgment of “disgusting”. Humans are NOT born in exclusively Male or Female configurations: What about Hermaphrodites? Are they psychologically flawed, corrupted, full of errors and automatically immoral? If one can be physically born male, female, both or any degree of either; that implies variations in the genetic unraveling that occurred during fetal development. Therefore, it is unreasonable to assume that all men and women are exclusively male or female. Humans present every genetic variation from horrible deformations to stellar examples of genius. There is no ‘standard human’. By her own standards someone who is deformed is “disgusting”. Some deformed people are brilliant. (uh, Steven Hawking!) 2. What then, metaphysically, is the standardized state of Man? By what right and whose values are we to determine who is the ‘standard man’ (Ayn Rands, God’s, The states)? 3. She completely sweeps aside the existent of the individual engaging in the act and that they are exchanging values based on their terms NOT hers! At this point she is not integrating but emotionalizing. Ayn Rand was human and experienced emotions too. In considering her position, one must consider to what degree was she sexualized in her orientation? For exclusively heterosexuals or homosexuals the opposite sexual act is emotionally perceived as “disgusting”. For those who are bisexual, either act is exciting. The first premise that must occur for her idea to be a complete philosophical integration, as an axiomatic primary of reality, is that ALL human beings are born with perfect attributes and that they have willfully deviated from such attributes. However, The only perfection in humans is that we exist and we possess a vast array of differences among each other. Perfection is similar to infinity. Perfection is simply a step better than “the best” we previously perceived. Who is to be the example of “the best”? By “what right and whose values?” are we to follow that example? There is absolutely no evidence from the sciences to suggest that homosexuality is a deviant act or abnormal. And if there were, by what right and whose values should I succumb to societies new revelation that I should be deprived of my “choice”? Ayn Rand simply did not have the benefit of fMRIs and other state-of-the art technologies and psychiatric and psychological practices. On this issue she was simply ignorant, uneducated and emotionally reactive to her gut. And yes, I am sure Ayn Rand had psychological issues as well. She was a phenomenally brilliant philosopher and integrator. However, she also made a lot of emotional and personal assertions in her various essays and addresses that I do not completely agree with philosophically. Everything Ayn Rand said is not fully integrated, she simply did not have the data, and I can only imagine the spin on “the gay lifestyle” that she was exposed to by the culture and media in her time… Finally, there is nothing that would change the importance of Atlas Shrugged philosophically, if Hank Reardon and John Galt were lovers or sex partners. A is still A.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 5 months ago
    Lots of things are done by lots of people that are "psychological flaws, corruptions, errors" and disgusting.

    Let them do it. I don't live my life for them, or ask them to live theirs for me.

    And since marriage is more of a religious sacrament than anything else, Government should stay the hell out of it. ALL of it. No forcing states to recognize gay marriage, no special rights/privileges for hetero marriage, Mormons should be free to practice polygamy if they want to go back to it -- all of the above.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by lostinaforest 12 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Personally, I'm not convinced by the evidence that is usually cited in support the "born that way" argument.

    But I'm not really concerned with what other people choose to do in the privacy of their own bedrooms--so long as all involved are consenting adults.

    I do, however, remain skeptical as to the motivation behind wanting legal recognition of gay marriage though. It seems to me that if one's relationship is desperately in need of government affirmation, then perhaps one might do well to consider the basis of that relationship...

    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by dirty_industrialist 12 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    really? so, you think it's a curable situation then, or a personality disorder, or maybe a possession? Because in my opinion (and that of most modern medical scientists) it is the result of complex physiological and psychological factors that are not a matter of "choice". And to me, as long as a person is contributing positively to society, not forcing anyone else to live as they do, nor asking me to fund their lifestyle in any way, then they get respect form me, just as any non-mooching straight person would. Mental weakness? Well who determined that? The New Testament? Religious dogma like that has no place in a capitalist society, because it only discourages individualism, and encourages the "common good" poison. And anti-gay activism and legislation is in complete conflict with objectivism. In fact, homosexuality is a total non-issue capitalistically speaking, unless the gay person in question is attempting to mooch something from the state, using this as an "excuse"...in which case, they would then be non-deserving of "respect" ...but not because they are gay...because they are a moocher.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ jmlesniewski 12 years, 5 months ago
    It depends on the science of the issue. Hasn't it largely been proven that some people are born that way?

    Regardless, this issue is a perfect example of application vs philosophy. Sexuality is not a philosophical primary, but an application. In this case, Ayn Rand's words are not part of the "cannon" of objectivism.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • -6
    Posted by etwfj 12 years, 5 months ago
    Homosexuality is a behavior, it does not deserve respect nor should it be forced on others which is the mail activist goal.
    I indeed regard it as an abomination and a mental weakness.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by itisntluck 12 years, 5 months ago
    Ayn Rand, 1968, Ford Hall Forum, Northeastern University, "I do not approve of such practices or regard them as necessarily moral, but it is improper for the law to interfere with a relationship between consenting adults.
    Reply | Permalink  

  • Comment hidden. Undo