Objectivism and Homosexuality

Posted by BalphEubank 12 years, 5 months ago to The Gulch: General
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With Maine, Minnesota and Washington passing legislation supporting same sex gay marriage, I thought we should revisit what Ayn Rand had to say on the topic: "It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting."

What do you guys think?


All Comments

  • Posted by B-F-H_333Ba 11 years, 11 months ago
    i am one of those who believe that if any kind of relationship is a relationship between two, consenting, human adults then you should not be bothered by the government or any kind of religious institution.
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  • Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There you go...no morals but what we create for ourselves...the sky's the limit right? If this were the case, completely unbridled, man would destroy himself in a generation.
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  • Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Respectfully, all of this makes no sense to me. "Unintentionally faking reality?" This by itself is self-contradictory in that in order to fake something you have to know what it is not to fake it. If you unintentionally act in a certain way, most certainly it isn't fake; the only thing that could be fake is acting unintentionally.
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  • Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, the problem is that with human reason developing moral absolutes, events can arise which may change the conclusions of human reason. Since God already knows everything, the results of His "reasoning" are perfect and stand forever; I do not believe that Ms. Rand can claim such a characteristic as immutability and perfection.

    Oh, tell me what logical fallacy I have committed, I ask please.
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  • Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think all of you wrongly assume I am trying to convert anyone. I leave that God. I am simply "reasoning" away from the information I have gathered and the intellect given to me by Him. Nothing more.

    You won't find me attacking or being condescending (purposefully). I consider all of you valuable as created by God and since His Word matters more to me than anything else, it naturally will drive my comments, responses, and questions.
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I deleted my previous comment. Starting over with this one.

    Nice Red Herring. We are not discussing murder by governments and dictators, we are discussing the Objectivist view of homosexuality.

    But since you brought it up, let's not forget that Mr. Hitler had the active support and help of a certain very large Christian denomination.

    So you can add that to the mix of all of the other logical fallacies contained in your "Actually, it's the lack of Chistianity," put in your pipe, and smoke it. Or whatever other bodily orifice pleases you.

    And Christianity (as practiced by the Western Church, I'm exempting the Orthodox folks from this accusation) HAS done a great deal of damage to the human race, just as any shame-based system will. It's inherent in the nature of a system that "begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice... [and,] as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof."

    Gee, I wonder where THAT quote came from? hee hee
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  • Posted by UncommonSense 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, it's lack of Christianity. How do I know this? Governments and Dictators in the 20th Century have killed more people than in any other century combined. The only other subject other than Christianity that has done damage to the human race is Islam. For doubters, check the 1400-year history of the death and blood that Islam imposed on anyone, and nation who did not bow down or "submit" to them.

    Yes, I'm aware of the dumb asses in Christianity who abused their position in the church and went about forcing people to convert to Catholicism or Protestantism under the threat of death, the burning at the stakes, drowning, etc, etc. I encourage you to find out what was the driving reason why the Pilgrims left England. It wasn't because of some Entrepreneurial idea.

    Among other reasons, where did George Washington get the hope to take on the worlds most powerful military? If you read his journals and other papers he wrote, you know the answer.

    Ultimately, Christianity is the Foundation upon which this country is dedicated (George Washington's dedication at the Church near Ground Zero in NY) because he knew without it, America would have never been. I don't see how in this case, Christianity did severe damage.

    This response belongs in a different area, but I needed to retort your last comment.
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Heh heh. What the hell, the Christians have redefined "sin" away from its original meaning (an old archery term that means "missing the target," or more specifically, "falling short of the target") into an instrument of Guilt and Shame that they've been wielding ever since to control people...

    ...so why can't WE re-redefine it to suit OUR purposes? HELL YEAH!
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Except that THIS discussion does not mention God. And Christianity is only mentioned in the context of the severe damage it has done to the human race.
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Just keep modding him down. Eventually none of his comments will even appear here.
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Nice! You've combined a Straw Man and a Red Herring into one entity! In all my years of watching people commit logical fallacies, I don't believe I've EVER seen that combination before.

    I'll answer your question, even though it wasn't me of whom you asked it: Yes.

    Yes, there are moral absolutes, as outlined in, oh, a little tome named Atlas Shrugged (you might consider reading it someday) and Ms. Rand's various nonfiction works.

    And none of which has anything to do with the scientific FACT of evolution.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That's why I find it all exhausting..his efforts to convince and convert are never going to stand up to reason, yet the broken record plays on... BLA. Can't wait for the "ignore" feature. lol (I have the Foo Fighters on Pandora... where have I been?!! "I don't wanna be your monkey wrench")
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    it's like he's trying to pick off the weak in the herd-it might work if he weren't in a room full of Ayn Rand fans who generally aren't weak nor run in a herd
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    flanap, deja vu! we have already discussed that there are moral absolutes based on Reason. Reason is objective. It cannot be used to "frankly conclude anything is moral:"
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  • -5
    Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago
    To answer the question..."What do you guys think?"

    Well, I am likely in the 1/10 of 1% out there that still believe in moral absolutes and that those absolutes come from an immutable, righteous, loving God who loves us enough to tell us what is right and wrong without equivocation, through His Word called the Bible.

    In His Word, homosexual behavior and actually any sexual behavior which is a deviation from that exercised between a man and a woman in a covenant, lifetime relationship (we call marriage), is sin. Sin implies that there is a correct way of thinking and acting for all situations and when you deviate from there, you sin against God and are accountable, regardless whether you like it or not.

    Therefore, although extramarital sex (I mean all sex outside of marriage) is definitely encouraged and accepted now days, it is just as wrong as homosexuality.

    The primary reason that this is sin is that it completely undermines the institution of marriage and the family, both established by God prior to the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden some 10,000 years ago. Married couples have a difficult enough time functioning properly together and rearing children as a family without the complication of extramarital sex.

    Man was not created to related sexually with another man and God's design in nature spells that out well. Oh...you may think it works, but pragmatism is not basis for principle.

    Again, this is simply what the Bible says and I believe it.
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  • -5
    Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is just plain hard for anyone to ignore God since we are in His image. He baked that into us.
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  • -4
    Posted by flanap 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    May I ask whether you believe that there are moral absolutes since you are an advocate, or at least condone, evolution?

    Within all that you have explained above, it boils down to human justification for human behavior, which can frankly conclude anything is moral since no moral absolutes exist in such a system of thought (secular humanism).
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  • Posted by khalling 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I dunno. the amish stick together and they seem ok. I inferred correctly regarding your niece's husband's choice.
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  • Posted by XenokRoy 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    One thing that may not have been clear, my nieces husband claimed he did not wish to practice polygamy and only wanted one wife. This claim was made to her father when he asked for her hand. He also sated it to me.

    I was skeptical of it as you hear stories that they send young men out to get a first wife and bring in new blood to the compound. At least with the group my niece was around, it has no truth to it.

    They do seem to generally marry within there own communities. I would think that this creates some genealogy circles rather than trees. Which has to become a problem at some point.
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  • Posted by WWJGD 12 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    OK, I get it now.

    And just to keep things fair, every time the subject of smoking comes around, I'll be sure to preface every one of my comments with, "Personally, I find your filthy, disgusting habit to be nauseating, but..."
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