Not sure I understand the question.

It appears that you have made my argument effectively and much more concise. When a person argues predisposition as a moral argument where does it stop? It is illogical and not needed as an argument. That was my point.

WWJGD,

I did not mean any offense to you or anyone else. I am sorry that it did.

I brought it up simply because I think my personal distaste for homosexuality will likely be visible even if I do not declare it. I would rather have it out in the open when discussing the issue. I also want my support for those who choose to live the homosexual life style, really support for there right to choose to be clearly evident.

Hopefully the latter came across as much as the earlier did with you.

-XR

Although people argue genetic predisposition as a moral argument, it is illogical, so why take it where you have taken it? If you do, then I believe we're discussing greater good kinds of things and that's AR101.

The second paragraph is all true either way. Being born gay or being born with a desire to rape and murder does not change the rules that should govern society.

Rape and murder are usually acts of initiating force and should never be accepted in society because of this.

Being homosexual is usually an act of consent between two people, and as long as it remains so should be acceptable.

If we find that there is a genetic disposition towards gays so that makes it ok. Where does that logic take us if there is a genetic disposition towards rape, murder or other acts.

The genetic disposition towards something has no bearing on if the choice should be available to be that something.

huh. if I were a practicing polygamist, it seems practical to limit your circle of potential wives to those who are open to the practice and are adults.

I don't see XRs bringing it up irrelevant to the discussion. It adds framework to the rest of his point. I understand you are offended by it,; you lodged your complaint. He isn't name calling or harassing you, as a matter of fact, you've made some great responses here because he brought the points up.

We have about a case every 3 or 4 years where something happens before 18. Generally they are pretty careful not to marry anyone off before 18.

I do think there are some that are forced into it after 18. Hard to prove that. I think it a rare case and not the norm.

I had a niece that married a guy from a polygamist group. I and her father were worried that he would lead her back into that group at some point. It has not happened and its been over a decade. I have met some of the brothers who do practice polygamy. Their wives work and they provide for the kids and are good parents. I find the whole practice revolting, but they seem to like it. In there case they are not stealing through legal means or marrying under age girls.

My wife has had conversations with my nieces husbands brothers wives and they indicate to her that its nice have another woman around to talk to, to work with and share things with.

My nieces husband died about a year and half ago. I thought then that one of her husbands brothers would make a move to bring her in as a third wife (both have two) but neither has. It has changed my perception of the aggressiveness with which these groups pursue there wives. There are those groups/individuals that are out there and force it, but most only do it when everyone is consenting, from what I have been exposed to anyway.

Anyway it averages around 1 case every 3 or 4 years. What it really runs like is a wave of 2-5 cases around every 15-20 years. When they find a bad group there is usually several cases brought against that group, then you don't see any cases for some period of time.

I like that last part, and I was going to give you a point for using the word salient

Then why mention it at all? It's flat-out irrelevant to this discussion.

BTW I agree with you 100% on the sushi. But my partner loves it. So I keep my mouth shut about that, too.

I have worked with a guy guy on and off over the last 18 years at 3 different companies. He once told me the thought of being with a woman was disgusting to him, likely as much so as the thought of being with a man was to me. I do not find him disgusting as that is his choice, but I do find the act disgusting. Is that denigrating my friend? I do not think so.

I could give a few other examples as well of behaviors I find disgusting. Am I denigrating another because I do not like the behavior they have?

I also find raw fish to be a rather disgusting food. I have friends who love it. I skip lunch with them when they go for sushi. I tell them ick, how can you eat that? Its disgusting?

Am I also Denigrating them for there love of sushi?

I am expressing my opinion, nothing more nothing less, regarding a behavior. If you take it as denigrating, that is your choice to do so.

It is important for the same reason it was important for science to determine that the Earth does, indeed, revolve around the Sun. And that Charles Darwin was right: if such cause is established, it will finally shut up the morons who want to believe in omnipotent invisible beings, talking animals, and a whole lot of other nonsense that they constantly try to force down the throats of the rest of us.

If proven false, we can then move forward with the knowledge that gay-ness IS a choice, and decide what to do about it -- i.e., forbid it? permit it? license it? tax it? exile them to their own colonies? etc.

As Far As I Know

Yes, there are human beings worthy of denigration. Looters, moochers and parasites are at the top of the list.

Responsible gays (or ANY kind of responsible hedonists) shouldn't even be on the list.

Well, I DO have a problem with someone who wants a different partner every night. That sounds like addiction to me...

Your second paragraph is spot-on. The Polyamory community is adamant that everyone involved in a multi-partner relationship be completely open about all of zir other partners. In my own circles, we typically know all of the other partners and consider them friends.

Anything else is what is called "cheating," which I also find disgusting.

what are the stats on this? is it prevalent?

what is AFAIK? there are human beings worthy of denigration. I am curious where you draw that line. I understand that XenokRoy has an emotional response, which is valid, but also considering he has a rational response to freedom questions which is exactly why Objectivism can keep everybody happy under the same roof, so to speak

What difference does it make if its established scientifically (or proven false) at some point? Why is it salient? I cannot see where that would make any difference on the person right to choose to do what they choose to do.

I have no problem with the guy who wants a different girl every night as long as the girl he is with knows it. Same the other way around.

I do have a problem with the guy or girl that gives the impression they are interested in a monogamous relationship but is being deceptive as they have no such desire. That also leads to .....

I agree, its a major concern and the policy in Utah DA office is to pursue any forced marriages or underage marriages (under 18) that they get some knowledge of, but to leave em alone for the most part otherwise.

And your need to denigrate another human being is disgusting to ME.

The "born that way" argument is NOT moot (please note the correct spelling of that word). In fact it is salient. It's just that AFAIK it hasn't yet been scientifically established. Or disproved.

XR, drop the first sentence and you have a fine argument.

It is simply not relevant whether or not you're gay, or have a squick over it. And I wonder about anyone who feels the need to advertise same.

My issue is the potential indoctrination of young girls. As a mother, I cannot stomach the thought of marriage to a 14 year child. it's not the middle ages where life expectancy in the low 30s. I know there are laws in most states defining 16 as consensual for marriage. the funny thing is, most states also have law that defines 18 as the age for entering into contracts. which I guess doesn't cover the neighbor kid mowing lawns. I imagine the courts would be lenient to the under age contractor in those cases. also, I wouldn't want to hinder a 16 year orphan from entering into contracts-because it may be a necessity.( labor laws are different, ie. part time job at McDonald's). I grasp at legal straws for this issue, because it is an emotional one for me.

Some of us find sex too healthy, too Life-affirming, too GOOD for you -- to share it with only one person.

There are many of us who have no problem keeping two women -- or men -- happy.

If it's not for you then it's not for you. SOME people are actually monogamous by nature. We respect that, and it would be nice to see some reciprocation in that regard.

But a large number of human beings are not monogamous by nature, and should never try to be. It leads to broken relationships, heartache, betrayal, and all kinds of Icky Stuff.

Well, omit the word "dinner" and you're close. Unless by that you mean "having each other for dinner" -- ha ha! -- but that's more like dessert.

Anyway, I've never been to an exclusively-gay party: among other things, I would never be allowed in. But I've been dragged to a number of sex-themed parties in which same-sex partners/seekers were the majority.

It has been interesting and informative to watch them interact. And a great relief to finally be among gay men who weren't constantly pestering/pressuring me for sex, which BTW is the reason why there is a great deal of animosity among young straight males against gay men.

Watching responsible gays who were acting like adults helped me a great deal in letting go of my hostility toward them.

Here is the thing, your choice is disgusting for me. Its not for you. I respect your choice, and respect individual freedom to do as they wish so long as they do not use force on another.

The thing is its your choice. The argument about born that way or not is a mute point. Even if people are born with it, its a persons choice to act on that. In the case of two consenting people that are not initiating force on anyone, act away on it all you want. You have a deserve to have that choice.

Glad you are doing what makes your comfortable and happy in your life.

I totally concur with your view on polygamy. I'd rather deal with one pissed-off woman than 2 or more any day.