Objectivism and Homosexuality
Posted by BalphEubank 12 years, 5 months ago to The Gulch: General
With Maine, Minnesota and Washington passing legislation supporting same sex gay marriage, I thought we should revisit what Ayn Rand had to say on the topic: "It involves psychological flaws, corruptions, errors, or unfortunate premises .... Therefore I regard it as immoral ... And more than that, if you want my really sincere opinion. It's disgusting."
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 3.
Here is the problem with the marriage argument, and why I oppose gay marriage. If the law says that its discrimination to now allow same sex marriages then that opens up any religion unwilling to marry a gay couple to civil law suites for discrimination. This effectively removed the freedom of people like me to practice there religion.
Marriage and the civil union need to be separated. Everyone needs to have access to the civil union as a civil contract between two or more people of any gender who wish to share ownership of property and have various rights when dealing with incapacitation or making decisions for another person.
Marriage is a religious ordnance, and must be kept separate so that religions may be practices without threat of a discrimination suite.
All government forms then need to be updated to say civil union rather than marriage as marriage would have nothing to do with the government and be purely a religious rite as it should be.
I do not believe this will happen but my question is would it achieve the equality your looking for?
Can you imagine trying to keep two women happy? Your honey do list would be never ending and you would have no time to yourself at all.
The FLDS church split off to keep polygamy around. They can have it, and quite literally they have every right to so long as no one is being forced into it.
It shoudn't take 10,000 words to make a simple point...
I, too, find the term "breeder" derogatory and wholly unjustified. And is one of the reasons (among many) that I despise militant gays.
There is a correlation between gay men and a certain brain structure. Last time I checked, no cause & effect relationship had been established yet.
OK, just kidding. It is interesting and somewhat informative to just sit and watch, though.
B) I certainly never apologized for Christians...or anybody else....EVER!
You're barking up the wrong tree. And most of the barking is practically in a foreign language to what I speak.
Perhaps letting bygones be bygones might help move you forward. You can't change history...what's done is done. Life is too short...and all that.
The bible does not offer "spiritual advice" on dealing with geeks. But it is DAMN clear (according to emotionalized interpretation) that homosexuals are an abomination.
I am not going to let you apologize for the most evil set of philosophical principles that have ever been unleashed.
Why are you apologizing for Christians?
I really don't think the formation of Oxford or Cambridge or that twisted parasite "Mother Theressa of Calcutta" comes anywhere near of appeasing the debt of torture and abuse that the Christian Churches have righteously upheld for far too long. And it continues...
People are innocent until they invoke a particular philosophy to justify their wicked actions. If they do not, then they are born as "original sinners" which contradicts ANY creatures ability to survive!
I can trace the path of this crap, from Homer, through Dante, Virgil, Augustine, Bodin and many others not to mention Kant...
Look it takes a helluva effort to trace this stuff back and trace the philosophical effect of these ideas on the west and their evolution.
Again, I would ask you and the readers to research Human Behavioural evolution, Robert Sapolski and primate studies.
Philosophers tend to completely ignore reality -including most objectivists- when it comes to referencing the animal kingdom.
We simply do not see ANY behavior that approaches the twisted crap people can do to each other with the application of frontal lobe intelligence.
Also most people tend to take slices of history out of context.
Perhaps you or some reading this has an Iphone device. You have nearly as much computing power as the first CRAY in your pocket!
Not only that, it allows you to access the entire field of human knowledge and history from practically any point on the planet!
Now consider that the Gutenberg press.
It was not until its development that classics like Homer, Dante, Virgil, Plato, Aristotle etc. etc. etc. became available to those who could afford it.
The RCC held the seat (and continues to do so for hundreds of millions of individuals) of information and power. They created and controlled "grammar school".
If you wished to read Aristotle at that time you either needed permission from the RCC or a kings ransom to afford the book...
This remained the case although, print media dropped as techniques improved.
Now there is ANY information available thanks to the Net virtually for free.
Unfortunately, since people largely have never learned to integrate concepts, the net for most is a mystery of overwhelming contradictory information.
The application of rational philosophy cuts through the mystery. It does take effort.
We are at a time in history where we can no longer sit on our haunches and clutch the old traditions.
We must stop the appeasement of evil.
Christianity is inherently pure evil!
BTW: " I vehemently deny the holy spirit!"
My response to your last sentence above:
"Evil runs rampant when good men do nothing."
I wish to save the world. Therefore I will think.
We don't see this crap happening to horrific extent in history UNTIL the R.C.C. (roman catholic church) came on the scene!
Finally, the Roman Catholic Church is hands down guilty of some of the most despicable, sadistic acts that mankind has ever seen!
They are not alone but do to 2000 years of history, ignorance, and instillation that took advantage of the ignorant masses, they spread their death-worshiping philosophy to the entire world.
Yes, Blacks and Women, native "savages" like Hawaiians, American Indians, the mentally infirm, or any other that fit the bill as a viable host to mooch from.
If your husband is interested, I mostly developed Frequency Doubled YAG systems using KTP and LBO chrystals.
I left the industry before new doping methods and chrystals were developed to produce wavelengths between 420-490 nm.
Now all that is available in diodes that they are almost giving away in "Happy Meals".
Systems i built were a little smaller than a dishwasher. Now people are building equivalent systems about the size of a small shoe-box.
The field is approaching magic these days.
My interest is now in philosophy and Libertarian thinking. I am redirecting my career in this area.
I think it is more important for me.
My application was strictly entertainment like Rock and Roll shows. BIG SHOWS!
That's not fair. Please do keep in mind though, I grew being picked on, tortured, humiliated and beat up for being "queer".
It is ONLY the religion of Christianity that has made this kind of abuse against others from Children, Gays, Blacks, mentally disturbed (possessed) so entrenched.
I am pretty tired of being called "Faggot" and it is tit for tat time. Christianity sowed this "tit for tat" response and as a helluva lot to correct before returning to the game table of cooperation.
I am willing to agree with your agnosticism on this issue of "choice".
When we examine behavior across animal species, in consideration of a bell-shaped curve demonstrating the statistical ratios, it at least follows deductively that there is something biological going on here.
However, without some kind of physical or genetic marker we are kind of left in a bit of a vaccuum pending evidence and scientific induction.
However, personally as I came to terms with this I was also coming to terms with my fundamentalist Christianity.
I was a speaking-in-tongues-holy-roller destined for George Fox Baptist college.
The problem was I actually studied my bible, the history and all the apologetics I could get my hands on, because I "JUST KNEW" Jesus must be real after the incredible emotional rush i had when I was "Born Again".
This is what totally launched me into deeply exploring philosophy, psychology, human behavioral evolution and the field of consciousness.
For myself, I have never had any attraction to the opposite sex. I did what was expected of me socially, dating, sex etc with women but it was a lie.
For myself there is an overwhelmingly powerful attraction to other guys. I remember it was viscerally compelling and I was terrified to talk to my parents. They gave me the standard "Yuck" and it is against God/Nature message.
They had to have known but died before I "came out".
I decided that if it IS a choice then it is my choice as long as it is rationally consenting, and trading the sexual values with another adult.
Without proof of a biblical God I will continue to reject and discourage Christian thinking.
If there is proof of a God he/it/she has some serious charges to answer to before proceeding to follow that mystical abstractions "values/morals".
I recommend Robert Sapolski at Stanford a lot on human behavioural evolution. He is THE expert in the field and the field of Primate behaviour as well.
There may be some subtle copmonent why you prefer Brunettes.
One more thing I need to point out for myself that throws an interesting wrench in to the familial nurturing theory is that I was adopted.
I grew up feeling like an alien and had nothing in common with parents. I still don't share anything in common with them other than bad the behavior traits they taught and later reinforced.
You'll notice, as you all draw me out I do wear my heart on my sleeve.. Oh well. I am who I ams and that's all that I ams!
Happy New year!
Please don't get me wrong: I don't argue that being gay necessarily *is* a choice; I'm just not entirely convinced that it is not. Or, to be more specific, I do not know to what extent sexuality is predetermined by genetics.
To use a less divisive example, I generally prefer brunettes. However, I cannot say with any certainty that I was "born that way". While for all intents and purposes it seems *to me* as though that is the case, it is also possible that my preference has been largely--or even entirely--shaped by a combination of my choices and my experiences that occurred as a result of those choices.
Beyond sexual preference, we all have our personal tastes. Must all of these necessarily have a genetic origin?
I don't get why people need a government or authoritarian to sanction on anything. It is really getting to the point where we will all have to file environmental impact reports and fees every time we fart. (oh yeah the carbon tax... damn!)
But you said:
"Personally, I'm not convinced by the evidence that is usually cited in support the "born that way" argument."
Fair enough. But may I suggest that you consider the dialectic and the potential contradiction in your premise.
First, I am presuming that perhaps you may be a theist / Christian and accept the epistemological premise that man is born into "original sin". I am making some assumptions to complete this idea. So If I am wrong I am happy to stand corrected.
The Dialectic is the opposite of "born that way". To take the opposite stance (your position that you are considering) requires some other explanation of one's nature -how they were born.
This suggests that all human beings are exclusively male and female and born perfect yet choose their imperfection by their sinful nature.
The contradiction is glaring: How can one be born perfectly intact, precisely male and female with no variations, that would require a choice in value judgment to express their sexuality?
One can not be perfect (I prefer heroic) and wicked (selfishly irrational) at the same time.
Also, reality demonstrates over and over again that ALL forms of statistical human behaviour as well as physical prowess and structure can be plotted on a Bell-Curve.
If your premise that is is a choice, or people are not "born that way" , then how do you explain Hermaphrodites and all the miniscule sexual variations humans demonstrate, in addition to the animal kingdom?
A trick of Satan?
It is only because I have had confrontations (draconian harassment) with the police then later stating a few choice sentences and risking contempt in court.
I am not very compliant...
The place this all has to start is when a child is about 3 and starts asking, "Why?"
We need to explain and help them integrate 'Why' rather than "BECAUSE I SAY SO!"
Just be really totally inflammatory I think Mother Theressa is one of the most despicable characters humans have ever witnessed.
She was a mooching, looting, parasitical "neo-cheater" extraordinaire... But then again so is the Roman Catholic Church (or any Abrahamic institution)
"I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to send one of these morons to the center of the sun while sitting at a dinner party." that will make a favorite line of the day.
the part about not going to gay parties anymore. what are those? I might understand , hey I'm going to a party made up of Objectivists. gay, to me, is a lousy adjective. it doesn't tell me much about you. but you did tell me your an optics guy. that's something we share. my husband used to do free space laser communication at McDonnell Douglas. He now writes patents for inventors, such as yourself. I'm assuming you invent. most engineers do. I'm glad to see you are shrugging. I am in agreement with you that means outside the US. I'd be interested to see you post something philosophical. As I said earlier, I don't like the Objectivism vs homosexuality thing. they aren't compare and contrast animals.
Would you be so kind as to clarify some of your terms above. I presume you are referring to Christ 2000 years ago? Or Aristotle?
You mentioned you wanted to help them finish the Job they started 2000 years ago? Who did you mean?
I don't want to make assumptions on your premise without understanding your position better.
I don't think you and I have any fundamental disagreements. I still don't know enough to make a judgement so I don't want to make any assumptions. I'm plenty guilty of that.
I don't get along with the Gay culture because of this suppression of thought they engage in.
I can't tell you how many times I have wanted to send one of these morons to the center of the sun while sitting at a dinner party.
I don't go to too many gay parties anymore...
Personally, I am doing NOTHING to suppress anyone's right to act stupidly.
In this arena it is interesting that when it comes to philosophy we are not allowed (lets say encouraged) to express an idea that contradicts another. All opinions are equal there are no absolutes.
However, I have a tremendous amount of expertise in the field of frequency doubled lasers.
If I tell someone they are using the wrong wavelengths to achieve the desired outcome. That would be accepted after a cursory examination of the system.
But when it comes to expertise in philosophy or critical thinking suddenly technique and skill are off limits in the subject! Cultural Mind-Control.
The course of my life has been seriously effected, impeded and marred by Judeo / Kantian philosophies. I am not getting into all that.
However, like all philosophers before me, including Rand, I do have my own axe to grind.
The trick is separating the emotions out so we are epistemological and metaphysically led to the good life.
Ok I think when you say "You", you are referring to "one" who is a generalized example of the Gay population? Its easy to misunderstand these things... I don't want to assume you're attacking me anymore.
I agree with you on the problem of "thought suppression" by legislation or cultural taboo like political correctness.
As far as money goes we are Shrugging. We now have almost all our products made in India.
That stops a considerable amount of mooching and looting...
We plan to leave the USSA.
Finally, I stand with Leonard Piekoff on the issue of whether it is hopeless to undo the damage. I think there is still a very small chance to save the country:
"If you saw you loved one far ahead, walking blindly towards the edge of a cliff, you would scream "Turn Back!" at the top of your lungs and run until your lungs were burning beyond any pain you had ever known.
Even if they were too far away and there was only the slightest chance you would not give up you would scream and run after them anyway for the tiniest chance to save them."
There are probably a couple hundred thousand of us, if that, who understand objectivism enough to articulate it.
Then there are less then 100,000 who can articulate objectivism and other philosophies and their implications on mans mind.
I believe I am in the top few percent. I believe I have the Key to the Yolk holding man in the cave.
It is almost impossible, but while my fellow man is still suffering I am going to keep extending the key until my hand is slapped away from the lock.
I am doing this for 100% selfish reasons because I wish to have the good life.
I hope this posts. It seems the moment I try to edit it gets completely galled up...
Load more comments...