I cannot find the quotes now, apparently the web has been PC censored by those owning the sites, but prior to his presidency Lincoln was neutral on the matter of slavery, unwilling to promote it or remove it. Once he needed a platform to save hi war it was something his conscience had to act on.

If I find the quotes and references again I'll post them.

Again, that's 20/20 hind sight, one he could not of predicted...simply a lesson on which to learn not one to disavow the man in total.

I read about that, and the amusing thing is that, contrary to what the press says, Robert E Lee does have descendants that are Asian-American! (They are not, however, sports broadcasters nor are they named Robert or Lee.)

Jan

What's complicated about upholding one's moral principles? If Lee was really opposed to slavery, the choice was clear-cut: either stay with the Union army or resign from the military.

Lee actually had three options. He could have refused to lend his military skills to either side. Instead he chose the worst option, becoming an enabler to a pro-slavery government. Without Lee in the fight, the war might have ended much sooner and with much less loss of life on both sides.

I have plenty of empathy for the slaves, not so much for their masters and those who supported them.

The memes, issues and beliefs of any given time are usually the memes, issues and beliefs of the leaders of that time. And every leader thinks that his or her beliefs are the correct ones. We should evaluate or "weigh" their beliefs and actions using objective moral standards rather than the "memes" of their time, our time, or any other time.

Does` nt matter. Show me where the Constitution grants anyone the power to get what they want simply by declaring "I am offended" . These actions are designed to nullify a legitimate vote in the United States of America, nothing more. Until Americans that voted this administration into office get off the couch and require their elected representatives -local, state and federal, to enforce the law, the communists will continue to get what they want.

It's not that clear cut. Of course present day understanding should enter the discussions but they should be weighed along with the memes, issues and believes of the times.
It is what it is...we need only to put ourselves in that position and learn from it. We study history to be free from it, so we won't repeat the same situations over and over again.

Since when is opposing slavery a "prejudice"? We certainly don't "have to ultimately judge by the meme of the times". Would you judge Hitler by the "meme" of German antisemitism in the 1930's? When push came to shove, Lee confronted a clear choice between the rights of slaves and the government of his pro-slavery "statesmen". He chose the latter.

Would I have abstained altogether back in the day? I grew up in the 1950's South, and based on my evaluation of the mindset of typical people then in power, abstaining (or actively supporting the other side) would have been an easy call. And I wasn't even an Objectivist at the time.

Yes, the world is way to "hard core" and devoid of reason and knowledge.

I give up...but not giving in. One needs to put one's self in the situation...maybe you lack that empathy. Lee's final actions are deserving of praise.

You're judging history way too narrowly...it clearly was more complicated than that for Lee.

Oh, I agree that principles aren't subjective, but our evaluation of how other people match up to those expectations is subjective - and we should be cognizant of that fact. Should we analyze the past to learn from the mistakes of others? YES

My caution is about criticizing military personnel for obeying the policies of their political leadership. I don't put Lee in with the Confederate political leadership (like Jefferson Davis) who were agitating for the continuance and expansion of slavery. He had to make a tough choice between the land that he loved and the land that he loved. It was a lose-lose decision.

Exactly my point overall...big picture stuff...thank you.

If you can't judge history by present day standards, you can't judge history at all. And even in the 19th Century many people believed slavery was wrong and acted on their beliefs. Robert E. Lee "believed" slavery was wrong and sided with the slaveholders anyway. That's history.

I would suggest that everyone needs to realize that. There are plenty of zealots to go around. What we need is a little more tolerance for others' viewpoints so they can be rationally discussed and debated. Civil discourse has become far too rare in today's sensationalized world.

Correct, we certainly can and should have this conversation but we shouldn't be blinded by our own prejudices, we have to ultimately judge by the meme of the times. It wasn't lee's intention to perpetuate slavery...even though that issue was part of it, he valued his state and the lives of his statesmen more.

Would you have abstained all together back in the day? It's not an easy call either way CB.

If only the left would realize that...

He obviously thought "state sovereignty" was much more important than liberty for slaves.

I remember reading an original, personally written paper with Lincoln's arguments against slavery...he was a smart and moral man...he battled the consequences of both sides of the argument for war or not.
Mercury one museum has that original document.

He fought to protect the slaveholders and their allies in his state, not the slaves (who were totally unprotected from their masters).

You can't judge history by present day standards...hind sight is always 20/20...however, those embroiled in this ridiculous fight today, have no basis for hind sight.

True rainman...sadly that's true.

He fought to protect his state as stated the material and gave in when he realized it would only perpetuate the death of many more.