I just replied to that to Horton in this post. it comes down to rational self interest.

"If they vote for someone else to take something of yours by force they're still a moocher."
Yes, it's just less obvious than bringing guns.
"what if you understand the moral consequences of being a moocher but you remain silent in the face of them because you want them to like you? are those people moochers?"
That's a good question. Can you think of any characters in the books like that? Maybe Gail Wynand. I think Wynand was a second-hander but not a moocher. He creates a newspaper that people freely paid to read and advertise in, but he does it only for a for power that comes from his past.
Anyone who goes against his beliefs for others' approval is a second-hander. I'm on the fence about at what point someone seeing approval of a moocher become an accessory to mooching.

I firmly believe, though, that the OP is not a moocher for taking something freely offered. Telling me I'm wrong to give my stuff way is as bad as telling me I'm wrong not to give my stuff away.

welcome Horton. way to jump in! My husband is from Hays.
With your beliefs, you will have some dissonance with Objectivism but not completely. Ultimately, jlc was able to show value for value exchange. As long as your definitions for value are consistent with Rand, I have no problem with what your are saying. But if you are saying altruism is a virtue, I strongly disagree. People often "give of their own free will" against their best interest. There is no value for them in that.

well, it's true with our current system. People either under-report, move assets off-shore, defer asset realization, or any other number of tax strategies to avoid finding themselves in the top bracket. Corporations operate out of other countries instead of the US where they were realized. Our current structure of government would never agree to not withholding. They are desperate for you to work for a corporation o ensure it. that's why they hate entrepreneurs. No withholding. They cannot see it always coming in a steady flow they can count on now-not quarterly.
Are you re-defining progressive tax rate to mean your example above? You'll have to give it another name, because there is an accepted definition for the other.

I appreciate much of what has been written today by epluribusunum & Jan (jlc). I first read Atlas Shrugged in the Summer of 1996 based upon two top-notch teacher colleagues of mine at Buhler HS in Buhler, KS. Monty at the time was teaching Honors Freshman English and his wife Cindy was teaching Algebra I & Pre-Algebra. We had all been new to the school district the previous school year.

I asked Monty (and Cindy), since he taught English, what the BEST work of literature he had ever read was. Without hesitation, (& Cindy in unison with Monty, even though the question wasn't directed to her).....BOTH immediately said "Atlas Shrugged." I replied that I had never even heard of the book {& they didn't mention it was a 1200 page book with sentences that are longer than most college professors paragraphs---perfectly intact grammatically....flowing like poetry}.

So, I said.....okay, what about the 2nd best book-----to which, they both replied again in unison, "The Fountainhead." I was like....okay, so who is the author of that 1st one you said---"Ayn Rand!" Hmmmm....never heard of her I said. And the Sec.. "Ayn Rand" they interrupted together.

They loaned me the book for my "Summer Reading" list. It took me ALL summer to read too! Shoot, all of my Tarzan books didn't even total 1200 pages.

Subsequently, after dozens of major life changes and disruptions and terminations and a painful divorce.....yada yada yada.. I re-read "Atlas Shrugged" again about a year ago--in 2 weeks this time. I couldn't put it down. I guess it boosted my "Snarkiness" exponentially because I ended up getting terminated from my teaching position in a small western Kansas town with 2 weeks left in the Spring Semester. Oh sure, they paid out my entire contract, but it was another BLEMISH on my person, my character, my affect, and my professional credibility that I did NOT need!!

Last summer, I read "The Fountainhead" in about 3 days in the Barnes & Noble bookstore at Zona Rosa "outdoor Spanish-style" mall just south of the International airport in Kansas City, Missouri.

Both books have really done nothing more than AFFIRM many of the basic character, moral, and work-ethics my parents brought me up to employ. We never had much money, but we made economical primitive camping trips to dozens of "Galt's Gulches" all over the entire western half of America before I even hit age 12.

In my current position as a "Grunt" on a Four-Man Crew that chemically reacts & produces liquid fertilizer all over the country, I frequently find NEW "Galt's Gulches" including a town by the name of Ord, Nebraska.....a well kept secret of 2500 persons in the "Absolutely Dead-Center" point of Nebraska----a state whose slogan is "The Good Life!"

If I could secure gainful employment here, I'd relocate the VERY FEW material possessions I still have after all of my attempts to live as Jesus Christ, my personal Lord & Saviour has directed me to live AND by doing the strong character--great work-ethic things my parents, Roy & Ruth Horton taught me to do. Be Kind, Be Industrious, Be Friendly, Be Diligent, Be Courteous, Be Fearless, Be Respectful, Always Give Your Best.........on & on & on.

I just completed a 48 minute run in 32 degree weather with snowflakes falling straight down like shredded cotton balls along a 9 foot wide, beautifully paved trail/path lined with Fuschia bushes, Rust & Auburn Trees, Forest Green Conifers with sagging branches laden with an inch of pristinely white freshly fallen uncontaminated snow where my footprints are the ONLY FOOTPRINTS in town. At Rosie's Deli, I had to direct a 70-something year-old woman chewing the fat with her friends over coffee to swivel her head 180 degrees and look out upon the town's picturesque Court House & Groomed Town Square at what appeared to be White Half-Dollars falling at Half the rate of Newton's Gravitational Constant of 32 feet per second per second. She looked for 16 milliseconds, nodded her head, sort of grinned and turned back to her friends & coffee & dishwater conversation in what I am now christening as "Galt's New Gulch," also known to a few as Ord, Nebraska.

99% of our fellow humans are going gravely about their comfortable protected lives too afraid to risk exposing their flesh to a gorgeous, Blessed Day, painted in His Glory sucking the life out of our atmosphere.

When will our Fellow Humankind wake up and realized how truly blessed we are....living in the Creator's Louve.....He's given us "Galt's Gulches" all over the place. We need to stop looking for what we can GET and for what we can TAKE and doing what "jlc" advocated earlier for his software company when he offered his best works, his "Reardon Metal," FREELY.

You see, FREELY and FREELY GIVEN and just merely GIVING is His Divine Order. It's what He did for all of us. In spite of sending His Son to Die on a Cross so that we would get it.......still, MOST just don't GET IT!!!!!

Thank you for the FREE OPTION to Galt's Gulch! Horton

I feel like we are mixing up the starting premise in this thread. I think a moocher can be a thug/thief by not even holding a gun to your head or physically taking something of yours. If they vote for someone else to take something of yours by force they're still a moocher. Here is my question: what about second handers? what if you understand the moral consequences of being a moocher but you remain silent in the face of them because you want them to like you? are those people moochers?

Not if they have watched the movie(s). there are many contributors in here putting up with ads and producing interesting content-calling them an "eddie" seems a little insulting

Not to me...but you could be right, in general.

Since trains are so prominent in AS, maybe we could have Producers, and conductors (or: engineers)?

That's your definition of a moocher? "someone who takes value without exchange"? People are free to offer and accept gifts, but as a third party you'll brand the acceptor a moocher? If people want to give and take things freely, why do you need a special epithet for it?

I don't think the website is foolish.

I'm just saying if they did something foolish and offered something for free that was not in their own interest, they're free to do so. Someone is free to accept the gift, without being branded a moocher. They're only a moocher if they use coercion.

"Eddies" is actually pretty good. Is it too esoteric though?

I reject the claim that all things being equal (i.e. same tax revenue / GDP) non-progressive tax brings in more revenue.

Why I support the general idea of what we have (rates ranging from 0% to 43%) would take too long. Ultimately I want gov't spending to fall so that the budget is balanced with lower rates than we have today. I would like for everyone to receive their all earnings and send taxes to the gov't w/o withholding, so people can see how much they're sending. Every time Congress passes a law to do something (e.g. help kids from troubled homes, lengthen prison sentences, protect oil freighters, fund cancer research, develop a new fighter plane) your next semi-monthly tax payment should increase to fund the cost of the program. That psychological stuff is more important than progressivity. A few months ago a smart employee apologetically called me on my day off and asked why he didn't get twice the pay when he worked twice the hours; I had to explain the progressive W/H tables. Otherwise smart people, but who don't follow gov't policy, don't realize how the system works.

I have nominally been a moocher at the Gulch for a number of months...but since I almost never visited the site, my status was moot. This week, I began getting a daily digest - and I find that I am now browsing the various comments when I get to work. Thus, the value of the site to me is increasing as a result of the Push message. Hmmm.

I am a co-founder of a medical software company, and we decided to offer a free version of our software a couple of years ago. It is a genuine free version, not one that is limited in time or usage count. We did this because it is to our (everyone's!) advantage if a small hospital in Tanzania has a lab system (for which they had no budget). Anything that can mitigate the next outbreak of Ebola may well improve the health of all of us.

We are also getting potential customers of significant size quietly requesting our free version to use as a preview of our system. We have made a number of sales that way.

So we have received value for our free LIS. It just depends on your definition of 'value'. Sometimes Free is viable.

Jan

That's your definition of a moocher? "Threatening someone with a weapon or sneaking around taking stuff"? That's a thug and a thief. A moocher is someone who takes value without exchange. Value is not always translated into money... it can be an exchange of ideas, conversation, banter...even meandering is valued in here at times... humor. The website is not foolish...they are building interest in a movie which will build more interest in Rand and overall awareness of current events... it has the potential to benefit everyone.

Glad to have you back Jan.

I will offer a point, of my own free will, to the proverbial cup on the piano. :-) $$

"I actually do promote progressive taxation"
It has been shown that a progressive tax system actually brings in less revenue than a non-progressive tax system. so supporting it would be purely for punitive reasons

Unless you say what this means nothing.

Snort!! More coffee on the keyboard.

lionel, I believe you have correctly identified an objectivist who thinks we are off the ranch. 23 comments, so far, ain't shabby...

Thank you, I'm here all week.

Oh I like. Point for you Eud.

Correct, in the same manner that Rand's NYC group called themselves "The Collective".

You're a moocher, epluribusunum, so get lost. There - is that the reaction you were hoping for? You've been around for a little while and contributed nothing to the site. You're just trying to stir up a stupid argument about its use of the 'moocher' term. Please stop wasting everyone's time. You can say something interesting for free or you can say something interesting while throwing a few coins the operators direction. Your choice. You seem opposed to the corruption of the moocher term. I agree with khalling - it's just tongue-in-cheek as is the description of the forum as a Collective at the portal entrance. I agree its usage doesn't fit the AS meaning of the term. I don't care. If you so object so much, just go on record and say you won't become a paying member until the owners change the term. I'm sure we all could live with that...if you'd just get on with actually contributing interesting, meaningful, comments.
We've got an interesting post on a movie called Dragon Day. Any opinion on it?
What's your take on the Fed's prosecution of a merchant over selling the controversial coffee mugs and t-shirts?
Any opinion on Chris Christie? Food stamp participation levels? Tophers' videos? Whether left-right distinctions make much difference anymore? Or are you only here to have an argument about "moocher"? That would be pretty boring and no, I wouldn't suggest you spend money if that's all you're here to do.

Eddies

RE: "The only moochers I have seen in here are the lurkers and the trolls."
Maybe we need to change "Lurkers" to "Moochers" and come up with a new name for "Moochers."