Why? Why is that a condition? In order to be truly "devout" you take a vow of poverty? How does that help anybody? It is irrational thinking. and btw, Mother Theresa was "in bed" with despots.

When Joel and his darling wife are willing to forsake all their worldly possessions, don sack-cloth, and work among the poor and disenfranchised as Mother Theresa and Jesus did, only then will they be worthy of serious consideration. They and all the other televangelists and thousands of men and women who claim to be devout have made a very comfortable living, much as the priests at the temple in Thebes, they will protest when the grain is distributed as Moses did.

Vicky is being condemned for making a rational statement. Not unexpected, since Christianity is, as all true religions are, anti-rational. Being anti- rational and relying on faith alone as man's method of survival proves to be also anti-life, with the promise of happiness and fulfillment only after death. And then, only if one meet's certain rather arbitrary conditions. I think that if it wasn't for the fear of death, no religion would exist.

well barwick would disagree with you. See his comments above. I can't speak to the Christianity part-other than what she said that everyone is so up in arms over, doesn't seem as bad as ALOT of other nonsense said in the name of Christianity. Like- loving your neighbor like you love yourself. that's just crazy

The very definition of a Christian presupposes a few things:

1) That you believe that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. You may of course have some debate on the meaning and translations of words from the original text (which we have multiple extant copies of, none of which differ in any significant way (similar to a missing dot to an i, or something)). But on the whole, the books of the Bible have long been accepted going back to the early "church fathers" (those who personally knew the apostles or eyewitnesses of Christ). Those are used as the very foundation. If you don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, then you can (and will) invent any religion you wish.

2) Anyone can *call* themselves Christian. Judas Iscariot walked with Christ for years, nobody (besides Christ himself) knew he wasn't a Christian, he sure talked and acted like one. Dimas, and many others who were contemporaries of the apostles and were written about in the Bible, also called themselves Christian, but were specifically called out as "never having been one of us".

3) Listen to the below quote from Victoria Osteen (and the supporting nod given by Joel in the background): “Do good for your own self. Do it because God wants you to be happy. When you come to church, when you worship Him, you’re not doing it for God, really — you’re doing it for yourself, because that’s what makes God happy. Amen?”

That statement is so explicitly contradictory of the *entire* teaching of the Bible, that anyone who makes that statement is either:
a) Not versed in the Bible at all
b) Taking an extremely warped interpretation of the Bible to suit their own needs
c) Fully knowledgable about the Bible but willing to lie and deceive people in order to further their own agenda.

At best in my estimation, the Osteens are b. At worst they are c.

4) Joel Osteen, in his book "Your Best Life Now", says: “If you want success, if you want wisdom, if you want to be prosperous and healthy, you’re going to have to do more than meditate and believe; you must boldly declare words of faith and victory over yourself and your family.” God will make you prosperous if only you “declare words of victory."

Another statement that boldly flies in the face of the Bible. It's so far removed from what the Bible says it's like liberals saying that "it was the Democrats that overwhelmingly supported giving Civil Rights to blacks, but those evil Republicans opposed it". It flies in the face of every piece of evidence in existence.

I mean, I could go on with like #5 through #382,718 on asinine things the Osteens have said and believe, but do you really want me to?

Jesus sacrifices his very life for everyone else. That is an anti-human concept. It continues to play out through History. It's why people become saints and martyrs... and jihadists
Doing good for others and sharing can very definitely be in one's self interest and I would argue the use of the word "sacrifice" in that case would only be valid if you were doing it against your will-kinda like how I feel about taxes

"Victoria Osteen’s advice to her congregation certainly contradicts Christian doctrine."

This is the wrong assumption. I don't accept contradictions. Chistianity is a religion to reach hapiness both now and in the afterlife.

The most important commandment for christians contains two parts: loving God over everything else and loving your fellowmen as you love yourself. I don't see there nothing about other's hapiness at the cost of the own.

The paradox happens (as taught by Saint Thomas Aquinas five centuries ago) with spiritual goods as love and knowledge: the more you give, the more you get. No contradiction whatsoever.

well that may be barwick. I wouldn't have any idea. But you discredit them without 1. giving any facts to support your claim 2. bring up up the test of "self-respecting Christian" which is a group that has no definition other than Christian which is objective 3. ignores the argument that individuals should do things in their own self interest, yes even Christian individuals

Joel & Victoria Osteen are so far from Biblical Christianity it's not even funny. No self-respecting Christian listens to them, BUT, many people who profess to be Christians because it's convenient for them, they *love* listening to Joel & Victoria Osteen.

Just like in the days of the prophets in the Old Testament... Isaiah for example, he was hated, while the "prophets" during his time who "preached to itching ears" (told people what they wanted to hear), they were loved.

Joel & Victoria Osteen are preaching to itching ears.

One of the messages in the New Testament is that if you follow it you should expect to suffer at the hands of people who violently disagree with it.
That is NOT what is under discussion when the Bible talks about "sacrifice". That's just telling it like it is: If you follow these instructions, expect people to get irritated with you maybe even to the point of trying to kill you.

Actual examples of sacrifices seen in the New Testament:

* I (Apostle Paul) have received everything in full and have an abundance; I am amply supplied, having received from Epaphroditus what you have sent, a fragrant aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well-pleasing to God.
* Do not neglect doing good and sharing, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
* Through Him then, let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that give thanks to His name.

Doing good to others...sharing...thanking God. Doesn't seem as miserable as you're making it out to be.

Of course. That's what religious teachings are all about. You're suffering on this Earth is your cost for immortality. Immortality of a soul that has no humanity--it only sits with a god in constant bliss and euphoria, like a continuous orgasm, doing nothing else with no effort required to provide whatever needs a soul has.

Sounds like wonderful Socialism to me. Replace the word god with state, and what have you got?

"What's wrong with the world?" Hank Rearden
"I don't know what's wrong with it, but something's very wrong." Dan Conway
"Hank, what's wrong with the country?" Dagny Taggart