George Will On Religion and Founding Needs Ayn Rand's Theory of Rights
"He even says explicitly that neither successful self-government nor “a government with clear limits defined by the natural rights of the governed” requires religion. For these, writes Will, “religion is helpful and important but not quite essential.”"
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The fact of the matter is that most true CHristians did not find slavery to be a problem for most of the history of Christianity.
The Federalist Papers – index
http://www.foundingfathers.info/federali...
US Constitution – transcript
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charter...
Bill of Rights – transcript
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charter...
Amendments 11–27 – transcript
http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charter...
Common Sense – by Thomas Paine
http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica...
Jefferson Bible (The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth) – by Thomas Jefferson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_B...
http://www.beliefnet.com/resourcelib/doc...
Washington, Adams, Madison:
"The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion."
—George Washington (The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams and ratified unanimously by Congress.)
- - - (The above says it all, but there's more!) - - -
"Thirteen governments [the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."
—John Adams
- - - “founded on the natural authority of the people alone” - - -
- - - “without a pretence of miracle or mystery” - - -
"In the Papal System, Government and Religion are in a manner consolidated, & that is found to be the worst of Govts."
—James Madison, Father of the Constitution (Letter to Jasper Adams)
"Notwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, and the full establishment of it in some parts of our country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Government and Religion neither can be duly supported. Such, indeed, is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded against."
—James Madison (Letter to Edward Livingston)
"Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty."
—James Madison, Veto Message, Feb 21, 1811 By James Madison, to the House of Representatives of the United States: Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An Act incorporating the Protestant Episcopal Church in the town of Alexander, in the District of Columbia. (Madision did not think it was the role of government to aid even the charitable and educational aspects of religion, even non-preferentially.)
"Besides the danger of a direct mixture of religion and civil government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded against in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations.
The establishment of the chaplainship in Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights as well as of Constitutional principles.
The danger of silent accumulations and encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies has not sufficiently engaged attention in the US."
—James Madison, being outvoted in the bill to establish the office of Congressional Chaplain.
"They seem to imply and certainly nourish the erroneous idea of a national religion."
—James Madison, on his opposition to government-sponsored calls to prayer and thanksgiving.
So keep religion OUT of politics, if you please.
--The BuddyLama
NEXT: National Mottos and Pledges of Allegiance…
I'm sure you're familiar with Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Church that contains the following statement referring to the 1st Amendment, reiterating its intended meaning:
"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."
—President Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Church (1802)
Jefferson believed religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God – not his government.
Jefferson wrote this letter Jan. 1, 1802 -- WHEN HE WAS PRESIDENT!
As one of the authors of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and probably thee most intelligent individual of his era, I think Jefferson knew exactly what that document is intended to convey, and what he intended to say in all of his writings.
Jefferson expressed many personal thoughts on religion, which were rarely charitable, earning him accusations of being atheist:
"The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man."
—Thomas Jefferson to Jeremiah Moore, August 14, 1800 -- Ford 7:454 - 55
"The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion."
—Thomas Jefferson to Benjamin Rush, 1800. ME 10:173
"The proscribing any citizen as unworthy the public confidence by laying upon him an incapacity of being called to offices of trust and emolument unless he profess or renounce this or that religious opinion is depriving him injuriously of those privileges and advantages to which, in common with his fellow citizens, he has a natural right."
—Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:301, Papers 2:546
[ Reference Article VI, 3, of the Constitution: "No religious test"* ]
*Article IV, paragraph 3.
"No religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."
Article IV, paragraph 3, illustrates there is ONE and only one reference to religion in the body of the Constitution, and that single reference forbids the use of any "religious test" as a litmus test for anyone to hold public office. Perhaps more importantly, it also illustrates the framers did not completely ignore religion in the Constitution and Bill or Rights, they erected walls of separation between government and religion.
"Our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, more than on our opinions in physics and geometry. . ."
—Thomas Jefferson ("The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom")
"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty."
—Thomas Jefferson
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
—Thomas Jefferson
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
—Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical."
—Thomas Jefferson: Bill for Religious Freedom, 1779. Papers 2:545
cont...
Thomas Paine, author of “Common Sense” (link below) and "Age of Reason" was an outspoken atheist; it is unlikely the Revolution would have occurred without him.
Benjamin Franklin was a self-proclaimed Deist who wrote a great deal often mentioning religious matters, often in a negative light:
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."
—Benjamin Franklin, in Toward The Mystery
"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it."
—Benjamin Franklin from "Articles of Belief and Acts of Religion", Nov. 20, 1728
"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not care to support it, so that its professors are obliged to call for the help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one."
—Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac, 1754 (Works, Volume XIII)
"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. [Robert Boyle (1627-1691) was a British physicist who endowed the Boyle Lectures for defense of Christianity.] It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"
—Benjamin Franklin, "Autobiography,"p.66 as published in *The American Tradition in Literature,* seventh edition (short), McGraw-Hill,p.180
"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."
—Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758
"Remember me affectionately to good Dr. Price, and to the honest heretic Dr. Priestley. I do not call him honest by way of distinction, for I think all the heretics I have known have been virtuous men. They have the virtue of fortitude, or they could not venture to own their heresy; and they cannot afford to be deficient in any of the other virtues, as that would give advantage to their many enemies; and they have not, like orthodox sinners, such a number of friends to excuse or justify them.
Do not, however, mistake me. It is not to my good friend's heresy that I impute his honesty. On the contrary, 'tis his honesty that brought upon him the character of a heretic"
—Benjamin Franklin, letter to Benjamin Vaughan of England, in Works, Vol.x., p.365
...cont
Our government is secular, as the founders expressly intended. Thomas Paine was an atheist, Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, and Deists do not believe in the Judeo-Christian anthropomorphic white-haired interventionist guy-in-the-sky who experiences jealousy, anger or love. The Deists' God is none of these things.
The phrase, "endowed by our creator" is found only in the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution or Bill of Rights. The Law of the Land is embodied by the Constitution and BoR.
The DoI and Federalist #43 both refer to the "Laws of Nature" and of "Nature's God," but that is the language of deists, not Judeo-Christian beliefs.
Some faiths object to or even forbid writing the name of their deity. While the common Christian name for 'God' is simply God, or Lord (gets a bit contradictory with Jesus and the holy trinity stuff), the Hebrew names for G-d include, YHVH, YHWH, Jehovah, Adonai, Ehyeh, Asher, Ehyeh...
The framers of our founding documents were skilled wordsmiths, I think the words they employed and those they omitted were each selected with clear intent and broader understanding than the bulk of today’s pandering politicians combined.
Religion is mentioned in a couple of the Federalist Papers, but it is not a primary or protracted discussion in any of them.
In Federalist #2, John Jay counted as a blessing that America possessed "one united people—a people descended from the same ancestors, the same language, professing the same religion."
In Federalist #10, James Madison identifies the most serious source of faction to be the diversity of opinion in political life which leads to dispute over fundamental issues such as what regime or religion should be preferred.
John Jay, George Washington and a few other founders repeatedly praised “divine providence” for the success our Revolution, but these were the same few voices saying the same thing over and over again, and historic reality reveals that our success was won by the blood and courage of a relatively small group of men and women determined to free themselves from all forms of government AND religious oppression (including yours).
cont...
I'm so proud of you, having "become an adult and learned to reason for yourself", since, you know, apparently I don't know how to do that.
Whatever (big) kiddo. You go on believing what you want to believe.
In short, any god that would create the kind of system described by Christian theology is not only not "Love" but is actually quite a monster.
But hey, don't promise to give god whatever comes out of your house first, in case your child comes out. Because then it will require you to sacrifice your child. And be forever known in the Christian bible as a hero of the faith.
Most excellent, well-thought out and reasoned response there kiddo.
When you can think for yourself, come back.
The founders were all about "Free Will." one of the most basic doctrines in the Bible. Our own free will to choose out course of life based on a specific moral code or set of principals, that in the US Constitution are called LAWS.
"Here is my Creed," Franklin wrote to Stiles. "I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we render to him, is doing Good to his other Children...
Jefferson was very tight lipped about his personal religious views, but through his writings obviously believed in God, but did not care if you did or did not or if you believed in 20 Gods'
Thomas Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public, but at times he would speak to and reflect upon the public dimension of religion.
Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom: "The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. ... Reason and free enquiry are the only effectual agents against error.[2] Jefferson's religious views became a major public issue during the bitter party conflict between Federalists and Republicans in the late 1790s when Jefferson was often accused of being an atheist.
There are many famous quotes of John Adams on religion, especially in response to the Atheism of Thomas Paine. For John Adams, Atheist beliefs were a threat to a decent and moral society. He rebuked Thomas Paine's criticism of Christianity by declaring that no other religion had more "wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity." But John Adams was independent of mind to recognize consequences of any established religion. In the view of John Adams, Christianity had been twisted over the centuries by authorities who used superstition and division to control the populace, abuse minorities, and lead large scale wars. In the writing of John Adams on religion, he often criticized the Roman Catholic Church for its corrupted structure of power and deceit. John Adams' religion certainly changed during his life, but he always believed in the virtue of Christianity and attended church regularly throughout his life.
You people need to READ a little more on the founders, and on what principals this country was REALLY founded on. Not only in Christianity, but also a large portion from the government structure of ROME, and the sepration of Government to dictate religion to the people who should be free to choose their own beliefs, and not be inhibited from that.
Have any of you read the first amendment? Why do you think it was first? Why do you think they said:
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
First Amendment, first part of the first sentence. That is how important God and freedom of worship was to the founders.
People can call themselves whatever they want. And, occasionally, even if they are truly a Christian, I know this comes as a shock to you, but... Christians aren't perfect either.
The reason the Constitution is less-religious in content reflects upon the widespread appeal of the Enlightenment movement in Europe at the time, while the Declaration was more religious in attuned because it was written at an earlier time.
I think about the historical context when we talk about possible changes to the Constitution to reflect a more modern thought. The world at large is in chaos; this is not the time to be rewriting anything. No one seems to have a clear purpose or thought.
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