I was raised Presbyterian and original sin was nuanced to fit the local private methodist university's moving target. We were all "college" christianed, which I do not agree with now-just the liberal touchy feely Christianity. I was shocked when I went out into the real world and met fundamentalist presbys. sigh. we even had some moonlighting scientologists peppered throughout the congregation. double sigh. luckily there was music! and sanctuary! I mean that it in the best way. and one PYF night, the minister talked about de-humanizing (this was the late 70's) and I got that. It lead me to Rand, I am sure of it. but I mostly had a great church family experience growing up. I wouldn't trade it. This is an emoting comment, so indulge me or not. Lots of people need to read Atlas Shrugged. we have the world to win

I agree with your observation, I just disagree with the tenet. There are no instances of infant baptism either in Biblical record or as doctrinal teaching. The only references I can find are of Christ blessing little children and His repeated classifications of such as members of the Kingdom of God (Sermon on the Mount).

We'll just agree to interpret that scripture very differently, then.

As for your choice about birth - do you believe that we originated from nothing? I happen to believe that we existed before this earth and that we chose to come here for the experience. Birth is an entry through a portal to a new realm of experience. Seems to fit both circumstances and I doubt the analogy with reference to baptism was randomly selected.

Original sin is pervasive throughout the Christian religions', not just a Catholic concept. It's based upon bibilical teachings; I know I was inundated with the unearned guilt by my parents almost from birth. They were Methodist.

And as I reasoned, still no proof from you or the $ wis-bangs that really came out of the woodwork to attack the faithful. Just more of your expert know it all opinions. You must all really get you panties in a twist around Chrismas and Easter. Using In God We Trust currency must also make you ill.
The intolerance of the objectivist religion towards others that are productive and good is
disturbing to me.
Rejecting even the possibility of a higher intellect,creator, when you look at nature is not logical at all.

Well, you and I obviously differ on the definition of religion. Having talked with people of many different sects and belief sets, however, I would suggest that religion is not so circumscribed. I spent considerable time in the Near East, and I can tell you from my conversations with people there that Americans are the only ones who believe that one can separate "religion" and values from one's daily life - that somehow what happens on Sunday is any different than what happens Monday through Saturday. To the people of the Near East, this is sheer fallacy and a source of great amusement to them. After examining my own way of looking at things, I was forced to conclude that they were justified: what one really believes comes out in every decision we make - Sunday through Saturday. What was also instructive to me was to look at the equivalent word for religion in those languages. The connotations were always that of "a way of life". Thus I have adjusted my viewpoint accordingly. If you're not interested, it's no skin off my nose, but someone else might be.

Yup

Long long discussion, but here's the short. I understand what you're saying. I was there too. Start with John 6:35 till the end of the chapter. Pay special attention. To verse 44. Also, "born again", which of us chose to be born the first time?

Don't get me wrong, you do have to choose.. but you never will unless God draws you. And if He draws you, you WILL choose, not because he forces you, but for the same reason you eat when you're hungry, when you didn't eat 2 hours before because you have changed, and now you actually want to. He changed you, and now you want to.

Precisely my point. You follow an ideology, not a person. You do so because you believe in the principles so espoused - not merely the one who articulated them as such. What is more, you actually took the time to prove them out to yourself and are content with the results. There are many who are not willing to do such. I commend you for your efforts.

What is more, you disagree, but are not disagreeable - unlike some others. The world would be a better place with more like you.

As a Christian, I really can't agree with you here. The choice to be baptized and follow Christ is absolutely a choice of free will and no different than the choice to follow Ayn Rand's Objectivism, Mohammed's Islam, Rastafarianism, or anything else. One does not lose their free will when they become a Christian, and they can turn away at any point afterward. Those are all choices of free will. I'm not really following you here.

See khalling's comments to your question. Dittos.

Yes, and now she knows the reality of the matter. Or not.

Why advertise here? Simply because I couldn't get back to you at that time? If you have no more patience than that, a forum is going to be a decidedly unsatisfying method of communication for you.

"being born is a sin"

That is primarily a Catholic doctrine that is without foundation in the Bible. Some other sects have adopted it - knowing no differently - but I don't agree with it. I adhere to the principle of personal accountability - we'll be responsible for our own actions and not those of our progenitors.

"Atheism means only a rejection of god, which says nothing about one is for."

You've made your own point more eloquently than you can possible imagine.

And when death greets us all and we float off into the abyss to dissolve into nothingness, no part of this conversation will even matter.

But in the off chance that life isn't merely an exercise in complete futility and pointlessness, I'm going to choose a course that provides something to look forward to after death. If I'm disappointed, I've lost nothing and won't even realize it.

It is a good book

And you have one founder, who cut and pasted, and became a religion unto himself. That does not now nor ever change that the VAST majority of the founders had a firm belief in God, and the moral established in the Bible and used that along with the Government structure in Rome and Cicero to craft the US constitution.

You and others can deny all you want that Christianity had no bearing at all on the US Constitution but the phraseology, the importance of being able to worship how YOU choose, were major key components in the Constitution AND the Revolutionary War against England.

Regardless of what you think or believe, here is another DIRECT quote from Jefferson on the US Constitution and our founding based on Religious notions.


Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted. – Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, (1815. ME 14:283)


No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and people so demoralized [lacking good morals] and depraved as to be incapable of exercising a wholesome control, their reformation must be taken up ab incunabulis. Their minds [must] be informed by education what is right and what wrong, be encouraged in habits of virtue and deterred from those of vice by the dread of punishments, proportioned indeed, but irremissible. In all cases, follow truth as the only safe guide and eschew error which bewilders us in one false consequence after another in endless succession. These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure of order and good government. – Thomas Jefferson to John Adams (1819. ME 15:234)

regarding ewv, see my last and final post to the guy (or gal, or whatever). ewv has been nothing but toxic on here. Robbie is correct in his assertion, and someone had to say it. Read through ewv's stuff. Toxic beyond belief.

This is true.

See my last and final post to the guy (or gal, or whatever). He's been nothing but toxic on here.

"at least" being the operative word in that sentence. But even in those states, people were free to worship as they pleased, despite there being an officially supported Church in that State.