An interesting reading of Article V

Posted by $ blarman 10 years, 4 months ago to Government
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The author contends that regardless of the call for a Constitutional Convention, it is not the States that control said Convention. If so, the author points out a rather egregious flaw in the Constitution. Your thoughts?
SOURCE URL: http://freedomoutpost.com/2014/12/debate-publius-lamberton/


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  • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 4 months ago
    I understand the negative points and concerns they are making, but they are all moot. No matter what amendments are created by the state delegates voting in the convention, 3/4ths of the state legislatures must subsequently ratify each individual amendment before it becomes part of the US Constitution. Do you seriously think that 38 state legislatures are controlled by commie Democrats who would ratify dangerously bad amendments that replace critical features of our Constitution (1st amendment, 10th amendment, etc...)? The most likely scenario of an Article V Convention is few, if any, consensus amendments coming out of the convention and absolutely no amendment ratified by 38 state legislatures to become part of the US Constitution.

    As far as Congress' involvement in 'calling' the Convention, Article V clearly states that Congress 'shall' (not 'may') call the Convention if 2/3rds of the State legislatures (34) 'apply' for an Article V Convention. These 34 states do not have to tell Congress what individual amendments they want their delegates to propose. The only requirement for an Article V Convention is if 34 states want to have one. Again, there are very low odds that state delegates at the Article V Convention would necessarily reach a consensus agreement on any proposed individual amendment. Dems want restrictions on political free speech. Others want a balanced budget amendment. Some want term limits for members of Congress.

    The Article V Convention process and subsequent amendment ratification by 38 states has a very low probability of likely success. However, it is the only peaceful option we have, to attempt to redress these grievances. Our only other options are state secession or civil war, which rational people see only as a last resort...
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
      Yes. It seemed that the person arguing in favor of the Article V process didn't have as good a grasp as do you.

      As for secession, that is highly unlikely. First, there is a portion of the national debt that would need to be compensated, and it's doubtful that the residents of any state would accept that burden. And second, the power hungry brokers would never relinquish their grip over any portion of their kingdom.
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      • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 4 months ago
        I agree with your observations regarding secession. To be fair, Congress and the state legislature would have to negotiate a divorce settlement that includes proportional (by population) payment of the national debt, and either leasing agreements or compensation for fixed federal assets (facilities, army bases, etc...) within the state's territory. That gets messy very quickly. And just like past examples in history (here and in other countries), the power brokers in the central government never want to peacefully let go. Even when the Soviet Union economically collapsed, it devolved into a "Commonwealth of Nations" arrangement, with Russia maintaining close ties and influence for awhile longer...
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        • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 4 months ago
          I should also add that I think our nation's political dynamic is untenable long-term and trending more toward civil war and/or breakup into 2 or more nation states. When you count clueless independents that marginally lean more in 1 political direction or the other, you can roughly say that half the country is hell bent on total bureaucratic domination of the economy and of most aspects of our lives from a highly centralized federal government in Washington DC. They believe, to varying extents, that government bureaucracy is the answer to all of life's problems and that caffeine-free socialism is more fair and leads to utopia. The other half of the country, to varying extents, leans more towards individual freedom, especially economic freedom, and less centralized government bureaucracy. I'm speaking in general terms, of course. There is a range of opinions on both sides (left vs. right). However, broadly speaking, these are 2 diametrically opposite philosophical positions (to oversimplify a bit) and cannot coexist stably over the long term.

          As much as it pains me to say, the freedom loving USA of our youth and of previous generations is gone. There are too many moochers, looters, and power hungry socialists now. Our country is in a similar death spiral to that of the Roman Empire in its twilight years. At this stage, in my humble opinion, the only pragmatic solution is to split the country into 2 or more regional nation states. I would hope this can be done amicably, but history tells us that almost never happens. If it is 2 nation states, it could be the RSA (Republican States of America) vs. the USSA (United Socialist States of America). If more than 2 nation states, then various regional alignments may rise to the forefront (Southern, Western, Pacific, and Northern nation states, for one example...). Who knows what the future will hold?

          If any realignments like those above eventually occurs, I think it will only occur after the country experiences economic collapse from defaulting on the national debt while the federal reserve continues to grossly devalue the US dollar. Most big shifts and changes in history have a big catalyst, like an invasion or economic collapse. While I don't like the thought of that happening, the current macroeconomic trends, in my opinion, would suggest better than 50% odds of a Greek-style bankruptcy of the federal government. You cannot violate the Laws of Economics in perpetuity and not expect to eventually have a day of financial reckoning. Of course, I cannot predict exactly when such an event may happen. As Washington's continued financial irresponsibility grows the size of our record-setting national debt and other economic distortions, it's hard for me to see us avoiding a serious economic debt deleveraging for much longer... Time will tell...
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          • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
            I agree with your assessment but not your conclusion. If you look at the nation and party affiliation by county, you see that there is a huge swath that covers about 3/4 of the country, mostly the middle. The NE and West are mostly the other side, with some notable exceptions - particularly the large cities in the middle, and inexplicably MN and SW WI (having grown up in MN, I attribute this to the Scandinavian influence which predominates those areas).

            So, my guess is that we will fracture into several smaller nations - The NE and the west will be the first to go, and they have the resources to do so. The middle will be the more challenging, as the cities with their populace will insist on keeping control of the non-urban areas to keep suckling off the money teat as long as they can. That's where I think the violent clashes will take place. Ground zero is likely to be Chicago/Milwaukee. With the most violent being the far northern suburbs of Chicago which tend to be more right than left and will likely get squashed between the north and south libs.
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            • Posted by $ CBJ 10 years, 4 months ago
              I think it's more likely that we will fracture into several groups of politically compatible states, with each group controlling much of domestic policy within its own borders. Regardless of other differences, there is still a strong consensus that we need a strong national military to deal with external threats. I doubt that there would be any feasible way to divide up the country's military assets, or any significant public support for doing so.
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              • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
                Most of the sheople don't give a rat's arse about the military or international threats. They will vote so.

                I don't see Chicago, St. Louis, Denver, Detroit, Cleveland, Cincinnati, etc. acquiescing to their larger state orientation. They will either dominate their surroundings and milk them, or they will create their own little city-states.
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                • Posted by $ CBJ 10 years, 4 months ago
                  "Most of the sheople don't give a rat's arse about the military or international threats."

                  Not true. A 2011 Gallup poll found 57% of respondents oppose cutting military spending. That same poll found that only 14% think that the military has too much power, while 53% think it has the "right amount" of power and 28% think it doesn't have enough power.

                  http://www.gallup.com/poll/27286/governm...

                  This poll tells me that we're a long way from an actual breakup of the U.S. into smaller countries.
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    • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 4 months ago
      Yes, I believe 38 states would ratify a lot of Communist changes, especially if they're snuck in with nice sounding names such as "Common Core" or "Smart Growth". This is why I think new-country projects are a better hope.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 10 years, 4 months ago
    our constitution was assembled with the Senate
    consisting of representatives selected by the State
    legislatures. . if that were still the method of senator
    selection, things would be different. . still, the States
    should have the prerogative to call a convention
    without the approval of Congress. . this is a good
    opportunity for an amendment! -- j

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  • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 4 months ago
    I believe they have it exactly backward. A convention would be a great idea (though we'd want to have someone there to push through helpful amendments), and in fact all 50 states have enacted calls for one (see http://foavc.org). The problem is that Congress has to call the convention -- and won't do it, and there's no way to make them do it.

    Of course, there's also the way it happened in 1787, and that is for the people ourselves to create so much civil unrest that Congress feels the national government can no longer operate, whereupon they will call one themselves. That is my hope.
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  • Posted by woodlema 10 years, 4 months ago
    Another brilliant example of how some people choose to make unclear what seems VERY clear to me.

    Amendments, removing adding changing requires:
    1) 2/3 House AND 2/3 Senate to convene Convention for a change, OR;
    2) 2/3 of all states to agree, meaning that all 2/3 of the states legislatures MUST be in agreement., then convention is held.

    Changes are ONLY approved by the 2/3 SATE majority.

    How hard is this to understand. The Founders made changing the constitution hard for a reason. THEY DID NOT WANT IT TO BE EASY, and done willy nilly based on simple majority rule. Keep in mind the majority many times simply means all the fools are on the same side.
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    • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
      Actually, it is 3/4 state ratification (as it is with legislative originated amendments). Otherwise, correct.
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      • Posted by $ jdg 10 years, 4 months ago
        True and also, Congress can pass the amendment instead of calling a convention. Which is the way it's happened so far.
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        • Posted by Robbie53024 10 years, 4 months ago
          Problem is, those in DC are too entrenched in the bureaucracy. Even those new end up with staffers who are lifers. We have a new congressman from my district and more than half his staff are just the leftovers from the prior occupant. The 17th Amendment took all accountability to the states away. That's why we need a convention of the states - to return power to the states.
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  • Posted by bz1mcr 10 years, 4 months ago
    Robertmbeard, I agree! It's about time we stop pussy footing around the idea that the USA will need to split up. Let's keep talking and working on how to get it done with the least blood shead. That is the real challenge.
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    • Posted by robertmbeard 10 years, 4 months ago
      While I'm a generally positive, optimistic (glass half full) guy, the track record of our nation's politicians gives me no confidence that things will improve. So, trying to be pragmatic while not hoping for this scenario, it seems the best outcome may be some kind of amicable divorce, if that's even possible...
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  • Posted by RickBulow1974 10 years, 3 months ago
    Actually, it is not a Constitutional Convention, but rather a Convention for the purpose of proposing Amendments. The Constitutional Convention phrase is a misnomer by those who believe in nullification.

    The Constitution had been amended 27 times by Congress (the first part of Article V) but I do not understand why people are so hellbent against the Constitution being amended by the second part of Article V.
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  • Posted by frodo_b 10 years, 4 months ago
    I think it's a pointless argument. The federal government doesn't follow the Constitution as it is, so any amendment would just be a hollow political act.
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