Hello DGriffing,
Very interesting. I haven't read the book in a long time, but I don't see how the Gulch could be completely self sufficient without living in a more primitive state, which would preclude the occupations of many of the residents. Is there a pertinent passage in the book that I do not recall? Anyone? Obviously many of the durable products in the Gulch had origins outside. I suspect that the Gulch would have to deal with the outside world... certain more favorable countries or underground traders, willing to accept gold or other commodities in trade. Black market if necessary... Hmmm....?

Regards,
O.A.

Some points to consider:
*The FDA is considering allowing rapamycin to be sold as the first approved anti-aging drug.
*The use of CAT scans, MRI and PET scans has increased by 30% to 300%. CAT scanners cost from $35K to $600K.
*Medical Laboratory instruments cost between $5K to $250K (unless you get into real high-end or genetic testing)
*a friend of a friend of mine is a Optic Neurologist

So, while we are OK with respect to saving 'something' in case of total social collapse and providing basic medical care (antibiotics, setting bones) ourselves in the Gulch, if there is no need to abandon interaction with the rest of the technological world, we should not do so. The population require to support a Neurologist who specializes in the optic nerve is...well...I understand that there are 20-30 of them in the world. I do not want to abandon the incredible technology that is in existence or being developed.

If the world collapses and this tech is not available, then the question is moot, but if we are living in a valley in Peru there is no reason not to fly to Israel for robotic surgery; it will be a long time before we have the Gulch infrastructure to have robotic surgery there.

Unless we are dealing will social collapse, or the chance to go to a new planet, then what I think the best tech model for the Gulch will be is to have a refuge where we can live our daily lives and create new innovation without Big Brother pulling the strings. We can earn money that is legitimate in both worlds (gold works just fine). Our freedom allows us to create new wonders; we can avail ourselves of the existing tech of the larger world. This seems fair to me.

That being said, I am a Medical Technologist, and I can run the lab instruments and do a decent job of understanding the results (legacy of having worked graveyard shift for 17 years). Yes, I can become part of the medical infrastructure...but that makes me aware of how I cannot perform a C-section or a simple appendectomy, let alone rebuild someone's arm after it has been crushed by a falling tree or implant a pacemaker in their stomach to remedy gastroparesis.

Jan

Galt's Gulch was self-sufficient. Everything would have to be produced in GG without reliance on the "gentile" outsider, non-objectivist world.

In a small valley that isn't magically provisioned with resources that are sparsely distributed around the world, there are many things that simply wouldn't be available. In high altitude Colorado mountain valleys, you can't even grow tobacco in the "real world", never mind the health problems it causes. But you could have a green house, if you figured out a way to make the glass.

Neither could you have the resources or chemical plant equipment for making something as simple as aspirin. Making aspirin first requires the Kolbe-Schmitt process to make salicylic acid with phenol, sodium hydroxide, CO2, and an acidifying agent. The resulting salicylic acid must be crystallized from aqueous solution to give a technical grade 99.5% essential component for aspirin. Then the salicylic acid must be reacted with a liquor of acetic anhydride and toluene at a controlled temperature for 20 hours, followed by cooling for 3-4 days, precipitated into crystals and purified as aspirin. But then you would have to make or acquire all of these raw starting chemicals including phenol, sodium hydroxide, acetic anhydride and toluene.

So what percentage of the scarce Objectivist productive resources of Galt's Gulch would it take simply to make aspirin? Certain things require a minimum critical mass to get the required economies of scale to make them feasible to do. Galt's Gulch would not be a utopia by any means.

The rest of it I've heard of, but what is a zapper? Is it electrical?

Veterinary meds and people meds are almost always exactly the same drug - except for dosage per unit. Here in Florida, most major food stores with a pharmacy do not charge for filling antibiotic prescriptions, even if it`s a vets scrip. Great way to stock the go buckets.

Like all other products and services in the Gulch. You will pay for the services provided, or in the rather unexpected case where you can't come up with payment you will do with out or someone else will volunteer to to pay or provide the service for you. Advanced medical services would quickly be available at costs lower than "normal" and new services would be developed sooner than those developed by persons working for the moochers.

This question would especially appeal to anyone here who is also part of a 'preparedness' (aka 'survivalist') community.

We have all been brainwashed to believe health and repair come out of a pill. Fortunately many in the gulch have learned better. Has anyone heard of a zapper? I can testify from personal experience it is great at helping your body fight off all kinds of infections. Along with garlic and the right colloidal silver good health can be maintained, Of course there is no substitute for a DO (Doctor of osteopathy) for severe situations. I'm new to the gulch so I'm assuming this has been the subject of other threads I don't know about. Just felt like I should jump in here. here

The answer of course is to get a sail boat.
living off of the ocean will keep you health, I know as it did it for 13 months as well as having the boat 6 years. also you do not need money the wind is still free. with all of the electronics available today that use minor power the solar power collectors and small wind generators made for use on boats will supply you with all the power a boat needs. and you will be able to hear on your radio all of the horrors taking place on land. so you will not call it gulch but trough.

My dad got his new teeth by painting the dentist's home and office. And when my dad caught me, rolled me on the ground, to put out the fire, he paid our family doctor with food and drink (alcohol) from our little country store. I'm not sure how he paid Dr. Sakaguchi (sp) for my skin grafts. I don't think doctors then even had a degree. Maybe they were self proclaimed doctors? I grew up to be a total do-it-yourselfer, I can fix just about anything, and I usually do. About the only thing I don't do is doctoring beyond first aid, although I remember playing doctor with friends a few times and learning the differences between girls and boys in my early years. That's how I view the Gulch, everyone has some specialty they are willing to share or trade.

I feel like I used to actually live in the Gulch, then something recently went wrong. Does every generation have these feelings? Does every generation not realize just how good the previous generations had it? Do we really need all the technology and interaction with everyone that we get today? I still don't have a cell phone, I'm just not important enough (actually I do have one, but it's in my desk drawer with a dead battery). Is there anyplace that still maintains a small community environment?

PS.. Cell pone is only taken when necessary, might have to pick up special needs daughter, or when traveling, or might lose daughter at Disney World (actually happened) in the rain. It's on a $100/year plan with 1000 minutes that roll over if you renew before last day of current contract. I've had for fours year and have about 3982 minutes left my plan for this year.

Even when our country collapses, there will be need for medicines. I suspect that they will become black market items, but no doubt they will be still made and available to those who can afford them

That is true. Its very scary to think that as our country collapses, these things will be harder to get- just as I am getting older and needing them

www.alldaychemist will sell you antibiotics without a prescription and are shipped from India. Good idea to have a supply of these in case of need. The advice in this post is very good

Medical care is the one thing that would be most difficult in a real time GULCH. There is an economy of scale that allows things like CT scans and MRI and robotic surgery to be done at a reasonable cost. Until the gulch was large enough to afford these things, members would have to rely on going outside for their serious medical care, or perhaps setting up a specialized medical center (Not in the USA however) where people would travel to have things taken care of

I too have moved to nature for the most part for my medical needs. The only real problem left is how to take care of a broken limb, or a heart attack. The general care I can do myself and do fairly well. May die slightly sooner than I would if I used all modern medicine has to offer, but generally with a low quality of life.

@winterind you might be worrying over nothing.

In the Gulch, so many causes of stress will simply be absent. Expect weeks of tears and exhaustion collapse as people first settle in, as they throw off all the years of all that insidious soul-destroying abuse they've suffered at the hands of looters. But as they get all this crap out of their system, they will emerge glorious, and from then on, present only the barest fraction of medical issues they were suffering outside the Gulch.

A close friend of mine toured the Himalayas some years ago, and encountered a couple of communities where all the doctors ever do is teach good nutrition, deliver babies and (very occasionally) treat cuts and re-set broken bones. No cancers, no heart disease, no dementia, no diabetes, no Parkinson's, none of the usual crap that haunts the western world. That's what you can manifest when you have a community living in harmony. (Not quite so good, though, when the Chinese are on their doorstep).

All these generations of living out of integrity (ie living for others, expecting them to live for oneself), then indulging in horrific dietary, drug and lifestyle choices to try and chase away the anxiety all of this causes, has created endemics of illness which we have come to describe as "normal".

In the Gulch, get used to a whole new kind of "normal!" :)

A few stray thoughts:

Anyone considering going on strike should take the EMT course as an absolute minimum unless they aready have medical training.

Plant your personal "gulch" with medicinal plants--and learn how to process, store, and use them. No replacement for a drug store, but there are plenty of essential supplies that can be growing in place,

A few books for the library: "Emergency War Surgery", "Where There Is No Doctor", "Where There Is No Dentist", "Ditch Medicine", and a comprehensive guide to medicinal plants.

Many veterinary drugs can be purchased without a prescription. Notably, antibiotics intended for fish can be bought at "big box stores". Some of these in pill form are identical to generics sold by prescription a copy of the Physicians' Desk Reference will help to identify them. Otherwise, antbiotics made to USP standards will be safe for human use. Make sure to read up on expiration dates--tetracyclines, in particular, degrade into toxic substances.

And yes, you can grow all the "ornamental" poppies you want. The milky sap from slit pods is raw opium. Concentrating it into morphine is a more involved process but the raw sap is a powerful analgesic.

Analgesics, from aspirin to opiod equivalents, can be extracted from a number of easily cultavated and wild plants, none of which will attract any attention as poppies might. Cattails, lettuce, and willow bark are three examples.

An aside: have your kids get into Scouting. They have some goofy ideology which I won't get into here, but the Scout Manual has a LOT of useful material on First Aid, "bushcraft", and the like. Virtually anyone can learn to set and splint a bone, attend to someone in shock, or bandage a wound.

Pretty much what I do everyday in my field - veterinary medicine / oral surgery. I do what M.D.'s and D.D.S.'s do for less than a third of their cost with the same equipment and materials. And I make a living doing it.

This is a favorite subject of mine. However, I am just off a 14 hr shift and have surgery scheduled tomorrow, so am not able to address it right now. Hope it is still a hot topic next week.

Realistically, the Gulch may have to take a Canadian-approach to immigration... prove you are not chronically ill, or accept your own responsibility for it.

There are a few options though - people don't go into the Gulch without ever having worked a day in their lives, the taxation is what drives us there.. many will have Medicare, or some kind of retirement health plan anyway. Those that don't can pay into a community fund, kind of how Mexico does it, with minimal money going in, minimal / zero waste, and it's a pool to pay for emergency care and medications if needed.

I'm sure several doctors will be in the Gulch, they get pummeled by the tax code as much as anyone, and would be happy to trade services for other services or products I'm sure.

Existing without any community cash is unrealistic, pumps will be needed, pavement, building supplies, things that can be bought quietly on the market but you can't necessarily build a village or community very well without. Some will bring these resources and expertise to the Gulch, some might have to be purchased.

Medical care really isn't a challenge, I have both a PPO and a flexible spending card for example from my employer. I always ask what the cash price of something is, I'm on some maintenance meds... the cash price of the generics is like $1.56 for a 30 day supply on one of them, under $4.00 on the second, and something like $3.00 on the other. If I use my insurance, it's a $15.00 copay on each of them. That's one of the secrets of health insurance... that 'overage' at the pharmacy goes back to your insurer. It's a credit, goes to someone, doesn't go to you... Many meds you buy is just pure profit for the insurer because they don't touch the thing and the price is less than your copay.

There is a thriving medical business along the Mexican border... quite frankly, I know a few people that have used it and its incredibly scary with the results I've heard about (first-hand), but the same type of economy could develop in the Gulch. A dentist that will do the normal stuff for a $40 or $60 office visit (and still more than they make billing insurance companies, paying employees to code the billing, etc.) and the same for doctors. If its just them and no overhead, the price goes down a lot...

Meds can be delivered by UPS or something to a mailbox at a nearby community or a rental mailbox/shipping type thing for the community.

It's really not a big concern I don't think. People that are in the last phase of life, or have serious health problems are probably not great candidates though (unless they really just want to live out their days). Life on the frontier is hard, firewood to cut and stack, gardening/harvest/canning, livestock, minimal appliances because of the power constraints, I imagine a lot of biodiesel and electrics... but that means people maintain wind turbines, solar panels, and biodiesel refinement cells in their garage... This wouldn't be eating bonbons in front of the TV all day. Without the services and availability of products we take for granted, and the need for seclusion, there would be a lot of "do for yourself". Probably something closer to "Life Below Zero" in Alaska than "Real Housewives of Orange County".

I would imagine very little or zero waste, as every resource would have to be fully used to minimize contact with the outside world.

you are correct.

I'd say we recruit this outfit:

http://www.surgerycenterok.com/

They were in a really good article about offering upfront costs and really fast turnaround for patients without having to go through all the rigamarole and high prices of insurance.

I do not wish to rain on the parade, but a real life Gulch is not real life. Thinking that it will ever come to be is not reality. The logistics of having an isolated community that is so self sufficient as you would like is not possible. You would be returning to a primitive way of life.

Trained in various forms of security, I can finally provide a service for the gulch.
"I'm sorry, sir, but only mr. winterwind can go near that poppy field."
(Just kidding).