All those places are at least an hour away. Melbourne is its own little paradise.

Yes, so I have discovered. I am always looking for more effective ways to help people make the connection.

I have been in the group, but I do not participate much there.

Kicked out!!! That is enlightened. :-) I don't rely on anyone else for the validity of my observations. I create my own axioms from my own thoughts and observations.

Thank you.

That does work. For some reason many people associate firearms with a intrusion into their rights versus anyone's individual rights. This takes a little effort to draw out.

It's not really an axiom in either Locke or Rand's formulation. Both start by an observation in nature to justify ownership in one's self. It really took off on facebook in an objectivist page (For the New Intellectual), my wife was kicked out.

OH MY NATURE!!!! How can ownership of one's "self" (the source of one's potential) be degrading? Frankly, I don't care what pundit came up with THAT particular gem. Perhaps they simply like to play sematic games. Before we can lay claim to ANYTHING else, we must first POSSESS a "self", no? All of a sudden, the concept of ownership is a negative value??? :-) Of course, I would have to see the conversations in context, but I cannot fathom a situation in which ownership of one's self is not an axiom.

Frank, funny that you say that (rights stem from right to your OWN life). I had quite a fight over this. Leonard Peikoff in a podcast calls this idea of "ownership" of one's self nonsense propagated by conservatives. He states that you cannot own yourself, because ownership is a relationship between you and something external.

My response was like the conservative John Locke and as a lawyer I think Peikoff's idea of property rights to be primitive at best. A number of prominent objectivists disagreed with me, even though I (we - my wife and I) provided multiple Rand quotes showing that she talks about owning one's self or parts of oneself. We were accused of taking Rand out of context. She does have one quote where she says all rights derive from the right to life - without any reference to one's own life in that sentence.

Some people seemed to consider the idea of self ownership degrading and others thought it opened one up to the idea that you could be owned by another. I showed that under the philosophy of law (contracts) this made no sense.

Anyway welcome.

I keep trying to stress that RIGHTS are RIGHTS. Whether we are talking about free speech or the right to keep and bear arms, if you let ONE slip, you endanger them all.

You should be happy to be out of NJ. My wife and I will be visiting FL soon. We will be hitting Ormond Beach, Marco Island, Naples and St. Petes. We have relatives all over FL. However, my grandkids live in NJ, so I will be staying there for now.

Thank you very much.

welcome Frank and I like the tone you set with your opening statement :)

Any quote from Floyd Ferris reminding us of just how oppressive government is gets +1 from me. I lived in central Jersey from '76 to '85 during middle school and high school. I enjoyed my time there, but love Florida a lot more.

Welcome to the Gulch Frank.

Thanks. Will be great if the non-gun owners can learn this is about their freedom too. If firearm ownership can survive another generation or so, maybe people can become educated, and arguments about why we aren't more like other (=lesser) countries will go away.

For reference, I am the founder and past President of the New Jersey Second Amendment Society (NJ2AS). I recently became the admin for the Facebook Group NJRKBA. Most people do not realize that there is *NO* ability to exercise the right to carry a firearm in NJ. Well... you CAN exercise your right, but the three branches of NJ government promise to incarcerate you for up to 10 years as a SECOND DEGREE FELON!.

NJ is living proof that Ayn Rand was correct when she stated:
"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws".

Our firearms laws are constantly being challenged. We were recently involved in the fight to keep Shaneen Allen out of prison for the "crime" of crossing the border from PA to NJ. However, I think the BEST chance is for National Reciprocity to pass the Congress. We can handle *ALL* "57" states (:-)) in one fell swoop.

Welcome to the Gulch Frank. How long do you think it will be until the NJ laws regarding firearms for travelers through NJ are challenged?