Don't get me wrong. I have a gun and am willing to die, for the right cause, with it in my hand and hopefully after I have used all the ammo. I just don't consider that a win.

As to socialists, I don't expect to change their minds. All brains aren't wired the same way and I think their processor is overwhelmed with emotional data and reason is filtered out. They think I am a inhuman machine and not worthy of their consideration. I don't think I can change them but believe that left on their own, they would starve. I think that evidence is on my side because everywhere they have dominated they have nearly perished but for the few that have been rational even though they were considered criminals in their society.

Very good illustration

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong on every point, coaldigger. As to guns, it's not just the size of the gun but also the skill and motivation of the shooter that matters. As to ideas, I guarantee you that between me and a socialist, there is no win-win. Either I win or I lose.

The problem I see with guns is that someone always has a bigger-better one and the end result is death. Ideas are preferred because a bigger-better idea results in a win for both parties. While a standing army may protect us from outside aggressors, it also ensures that we ultimately have no protection from our own government. The second amendment was all well and good when the musket was the biggest-best available weapon and could be wielded by soldier and farmer alike but current technology has reduced that right useless.

Good answers! Again, the problem is that a person can't be argued out of something he wasn't argued in to - If he just "feels" that way, not only should his feelings be given respect and credence, they should be - and are - given the same weight as rational discussion.

Even if you ask them the hard questions, like "should a woman allow herself and her daughter to be raped rather than defend herself with a gun?" they will, if you push them to the wall, say "yes. there is no excuse for citizens to have guns."
I'm so furious that WE'RE going to get what THEY deserve.

Right!? This is from a friend I've known for years! She's homeschooled all 5 of her kids, and has a nice farm in OK. She's pretty alright. Self sufficient, too.

Truth.