Al Qu' ida forces retake Fallujah

Posted by exindigo 11 years, 3 months ago to Politics
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How many people did we lose there? So we declared victory, made all kinds of statements about how successful US operations were in pacifying and rebuilding the country. Then we pulled out and the whole place has returned to fighting with the big difference that Al Qu'ida is not substantially in charge where they almost did not exist before. When will the Galt-led strike begin?

We learned absolutely no lessons from Vietnam at a cost of hundreds of thousands of lives lost or destroyed in some way.

What has been accomplished from a "lead from behind" policy? I posit the following: The destruction of American policy and the lessening of American influence in the world. Obama's legacy has set us back fifteen years and will, in the near future, prohibit us getting involved in some worthwhile causes. Good job American voters.


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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People have can't change the fact they are a person by changing their religion. Look at the dark ages. we could say-it was hopeless due to religion. But humans are rational. reason is volitional, you are correct. You can choose not to use it. Whenever people are free from govt or religious oppression-meaning their natural rights are protected, people choose to use their mind on productive activities for themselves and their families. Every culture, every religion, every race-same basic result. From the dark age (my definition-fall of Rome through 13th century) to renaissance in the 14th century.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I cannot disagree with that, except to say that I personally believe that their fundamentalist religion has corrupted their desire for natural freedom.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Must be. The only thing I can think of that might be bothering him is that Japan has begun a military buildup, but these seems to be a combination of reaction to China and a lack of faith that the US will follow thru with our commitments to them. I don't blame them for either of these opinions.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think it is a myth that different cultures have different wants and needs. This is why they're called "natural" rights. rights based on the fact that we are human beings. Human beings have certain characteristics that need certain conditions in order to live (and thrive). To show that's the case, the same thing could be said about the japanese in WWII. Or Viet Nam recently. they saw China taking off and said-shoot, we gotta have some of that too!.
    The reason we have lost this war is because we don't believe in our own ideals. we go over, win, and the first thing we say is set up any laws and govt you want. The first thing they do is set up an Islamic fundamentalist state. If we believed in our own Constitution and values we would say NO! You have to have religious freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, free association, the goal of the government is to protect the natural rights of the individual.
    But instead we believe in moral and cultural relativism-oh, we can't force freedom down your throats! how bad of us! Cultural relativism is essentially a "racist" concept, in my opinion.
    There are two models in US history that have been successful in wars. The WWII model and the Barbary pirate model.
    In one case, it's what hiraghm states-you get unconditional surrender. BUT if you do that, the followup is important-you have to setup a system based on natural rights or you will end up with the same problems.
    Barbary pirate model-is what Will suggests-bomb but demand.We don't care that it's indiscriminate. We don't do either anymore. Bush did not follow through and ignored our Constitution as the appropriate model in Iraq and afganistan and Obama is guilty of actively aiding the Islamic fundamentalists to take over the middle east region.
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  • Posted by $ Susanne 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Must be a backstory there... I'm trying to discern exactly how Japan 80 years ago has jack to do with the Middle East today and our waste of our soldiers lives there...
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How did the Japanese cross their fingers behind their backs and what have they done to deserve your ire? When I was over there they seemed fine, even cooperative with us. Well, at least the ones around Okinawa did.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Does that not presuppose those people want individual rights, capitalism and freedom? In the case of the Middle East I do not see that.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I 'm not sure I agree. If your leaders threaten us, the reality is we are going to descend. We take time talent and risk to do it, we set up your Constitution and promote the system of capitalism. In the meantime you owe us some resources. But if we have to be bothered to stop your threat against us - you 're going to adhere to our laws and system. This is part of the point in keeping enemies from you door. Get them individual rights protection and focused on capitalism and it 's amazing how quickly the stoneage melts away. But since we don't even support our own
    Constitution might as well just do what you suggest. Obamas child the Arab spring in two months destroyed all we had accomplished prior in that war. I think of how futile our soldiers feel being undermined like that and any of the soldiers who did a tour or several over there. What a waste. Treasonous

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  • -2
    Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You named the problem. We tried to "free" Iraq in stead of conquering it.

    I don't know what a lot of people think. I know that that is what we should have done.

    That is not what Americans do? Apparently what Americans do is kiss the ass of every PoS primitive out there and ask him nicely if he'd like cookies with his tea, oh and would he forgive us for not giving ourselves to his whim?

    Bull it's not what Americans do. Maybe you forgot the piece of toilet paper the Japanese signed on the deck of the Missouri while crossing their fingers behind their backs, but I haven't. We demanded and we got unconditional surrender. Unconditional. We got it after blowing straight to hell two cities, each in the blink of an eye. And then we went in and ruled until we (mistakenly) judged them civilized enough to rule themselves.

    Either we learn to conquer them, or we learn to love the Adhan.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago
    These people have been fighting for thousands of years. They are not going to stop on our account. The best thing we can do is pull out completely and bomb any structure with anything nuclear in it before it first starts up. It’s a simple matter really. We buy oil from whoever is in power, and when a nuclear facility is found by intelligence a B2 is sent from Whiteman AFB to destroy it. When the fragments of the bombs are uncovered they appear Chinese, Russian, British, American, etc. The enemy would find themselves thoroughly confused unable to determine who had done it.

    A policy like that would save us the cost of all the American lives spent to try to free places like Iraq, while maintaining our national security.

    A lot of people believe that we should have invaded and conquered Iraq. That is not what Americans do. It’s not who we are, and I do not see where we should debase ourselves for people who call us the “Great Satan” of the world. You want to wallow in your stone age filth, fine, stay that way.
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  • Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Very little if any. Equipment withdrawal was included under OPSEC (OPerational SECurity) when I was in during the 90's. We may have left some outdated stuff behind, but little of any use. The biggest things we leave behind now is buildings and improved infrastructure.
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  • -1
    Posted by $ Maphesdus 11 years, 3 months ago
    Well, the Iraq war was started under Bush's presidency, so it's not rational to place blame entirely on Obama's shoulders.

    Should we have waited longer before we pulled out? If we had, would it have made any difference? If we had stayed in Iraq longer, could we really afford the negative fiscal impact that further prolonging the war would have had on our nation's economy? Or would it have been better to simply leave Saddam Hussein in power and never go to war in the first place? Honestly, I don't know. The whole thing was a huge mess, and I don't really know whether the alternatives would have been any better.
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  • Posted by $ Mimi 11 years, 3 months ago
    How much equipment did we leave behind?
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I disagree about as strenuously as is possible.
    I sincerely believe that God meant for America to rule the world at the end of WWII. And we blew it, for no better reason than altruism.

    Yes, we have a right to interfere with others.
    We went into Kuwait because... oil.
    We went into Iraq and Afghanistan because Moslems wouldn't stay in their bit of the world and not fly airliners into skyscrapers. We should have conquered Afghanistan because it is a source of rare earths, which we will need until we get off our asses and begin exploiting the solar system.

    Sorry, I can't accede to utopian views of the world that regard everyone as equal, every philosophy as equal, which pretend that if everyone just act a certain way the world will be paradise.

    The 7th century death cult dominating that part of the world isn't going to sit in their hovels and leave the rest of the world alone. The Moslem goal of global conquest is *not* "internal strife".

    Obama put us on the wrong side in Libya and Afghanistan, and I know why, but that doesn't mean we don't have an interest in who rules those two countries, particularly when one faction represents the most virulent and dedicated aspects of Moslem conquest.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The alternative would have been better.

    We stunned the world, showing them what a modern military can do, when we blew through Iraq like crap through a goose.

    Where we screwed up was not in invading, but in "winning hearts and minds" rather than breaking arses. We should have gone in there and ruled, not served. Our mission wasn't, or at least shouldn't have been, to bring democracy to the middle east, but to pacify the middle east. To take away their ability and will to take offensive action against us.

    We wouldn't have been there for a decade had we done it right.

    The question of blame doesn't lie with starting the IRAQI THEATER of the war, but in how we dealt with it once we'd won.
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