you no longer can hold your own values in America

Posted by MaxCasey 11 years, 4 months ago to News
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you are no longer able to chose to exercise your values in America. You now run the risk of being forced to become a hypocrite by the government. Whether you agree with gay marriage or not, this baker should not be forced to work for people he chooses not too.


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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yup, there used to be slaves in America.

    Things do change. It is getting better. But when someone can simply attempt to trump our laws with their religion they should fail. We are not a theocracy and a "religious" excuse for anything IMO is quite lame.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes. There is difference between having one's own body parts involved (for example disease could be transferred) and a cake that is simply handed over for a fair value.

    Arguments extremes don't make any points. Pushing things to absurdity just shows how desperate one is to make any "argument."
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Really? Owned? Did anyone have a receipt for him? Was he traded at some auction?

    Americans are "forced" by social contract to do many things. Taxes, speed limits, clearing sidewalks of snow... I don't feel "owned" when I follow these conventions.

    America has been built following a path of equality and non-discrimination. To violate that is simply un-American.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sure I can. Them there "holy" words are there for all to see. Ain't anyone allowed to creatively interpret it for love as much as guys like Hiraghm and Fred Phelps do for hate?

    I find it interesting... It's not a debate about religion but a debate about business and what should be the rule book. Atlas Shrugged or some bible.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    America is not a theocracy and doesn't run on your brutal god's law.

    Marriage is a civil contract. America does not have a state religion.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    so everytime we disagree in here philosophically, I am taking your dignity? Becasue you're in no way affecting mine.
    Why is it that the couple doesn't get that?
    I think the couple does. They felt no harm. They wanted to be activists on this and make a point-with a big stick.
    Now the bakers, having paid lots of money to be in court, are considering, if they haven't already, closing their business. They have received numerous death threats and attempted vandalism-that's HARM.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Wrong again Hiraghm.

    Marriage is a CIVIL contract. Remember even atheists can be married. Heck, in some states even homosexual atheists can be married.

    In fact there is a bit of an economical boom in those states where same sex couples can marry. I'm sure John Galt would approve of those businesses giving value for their services.

    Oh, and BTW, Bishop Spong is Christian and he says same sex marriage is OK. How do I sort out all those Christians? There is you and Fred Phelps on the brutal side denying love and then there is Spong going along with loving relationships. Christanity sure is confusing when folks try to impose it upon others.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not argue from religion.
    Refusing to "service" a potential client is not the same as "taking" his dignity.
    A contract must have at least 2 willing parties in order to be valid.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Only if that many people want to buy it.

    The guy is in business. Why do you advocate that he be allowed to discriminate? Oh, that's right... your religion. Just like Fred Phelps.

    Why do you argue to take the dignity from another man? What do you gain from it? You can't trade it, you can't sell it... So, you steal it with no intention of gain. That doesn't sound like anything Ayn Rand would approve of.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This mentality could also lead to telling me hours of operation, that I have to offer a vegan alternative-
    when starbucks Ceo asked that patrons not use there shops when wearing their firearms where was the moral outrage from the civil rights groups
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sheesh Hiraghm again arguments from absurdity just don't wash.

    Why don't you take awhile.

    Why can't you understand that it's just good business to sell to everyone? That was clearly demonstrated when the American Family Association tried to boycott Ford for advertising with gay themes. Yet Ford made it through without any government aid. It's just good business to be inclusive. I'm sure John Galt would approve.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But its a private business. Part of any contract iswillingness of both parties in order to make it valid.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    When the court rules based on anticipating harm and assigning rights to an entire society--
    it is off the constitutional ranch
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually it does Hiraghm. Besides, your own religion demands it.

    Remember, render onto Cesar.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm usually pretty good at pointing out loopy logic that just doesn't make any sense but this one is so far out I just can't get a handle on it Hiraghm.

    Maybe you should go back to your bishop for some more sloganeering.
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  • Posted by Boborobdos 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    arguments of absurdity don't work.

    Besides, the dog is unlikely to be old enough or have enough cognitive ability to support any concept of informed consent.

    Thus Hiraghm you would likely IMO be guilty of rape (forgetting about the bestiality part).

    BTW, now that we are clear from your statements we can deduce that such is common among anti-gay zealots. Check this out: http://www.theonion.com/video/breaking-a...
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Easy, John Galt is the dude, 2nd from the right, who is going to stop the motor of the world. Unfortunately, he may be written out of this version of AS we are in.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Uh Merriam Webster says"often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition " Sounds to me like the United States of Obamanation ( Or the Free Democratic United States, if you don't want to get too personal) Either way, I think you could both be right here. Both Italy and Germany in WW2 tried to run that drill, however, since a lot of their leadership swang that way, it wasn't used except when convenient.
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  • Posted by barwick11 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually, learn your history. Fascism isn't defined as "declaring homosexuality illegal". Fascism is the ability to own private property, but Government telling you what you have to do with it.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    While there may not be an explicit enumeration of rights in the Bible, a reading of the old and new testaments reveals the existence of certain rights and what they might be.


    Any "right" only written down in legal documents is a right granted by men, revokable by men. The wording of the Constitution makes it clear that the document does not grant rights, it grants powers, and protects rights, which can't be granted by men.

    If men are equal, they cannot grant "rights" to other men.

    Therefore, either rights come from God, or rights don't exist. Or men are not equal.

    I already dealt with this in another thread.

    "Rights" are a convenient fiction for allowing men to deal with one another. Without the authority of God behind them, the concept is meaningless.

    In such a world, you have the "right" to do anything you have the *power* to do. You are denied the "right" to do anything you lack the *power* to do.

    In such a world, I have the "right" to discriminate against whomever I choose for whatever reason I choose, so long as I have the power to enforce it. Thus, if a pair of homosexuals enter a bakery, the proprietor has the "right" to pull out a shotgun and help them back out the door.
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Who says? I'd sure like to try. Fear doesn't motivate me as much as freedom and liberty excite me.

    What did humanity do before there were laws?
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Okay, then the bakery can provide them with a bunt cake from the yellow tag section of Wal-mart.
    (yellow tags denote food whose expiration date has arrived).

    That'll be adequate.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    And if they came in a yamulke? Monk's robes? A burqa?

    You're a hypocrite.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Are you reciting the balcony scene from Romeo and Juliet?

    Oh, wait, we're not asking irrelevant questions that have nothing to do with the discussion? Sorry, you had me fooled there for a second.

    I guess you can't be bothered to investigate the context of Jesus' comment you so love to quote.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 4 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There are lots of civil contracts which are not marriage.

    Calling a tail a leg doesn't make the name fit.

    You can call baptism a sales receipt... doesn't make it so.

    In America we are ruled by the Constitution, which grants limited power to government. We are not ruled by any law which exceeds those powers granted by the Constitution.
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