It is necessary to have regulations which impose certain restrictions on business. Obviously having too many regulations or regulations which are bad could have a negative impact on a business, but having no regulations at all would have a seriously detrimental impact on the general public. A balance needs to be struck. Men must be protected not only from their government, but from their fellow citizens as well.
Right on, USA... All the PC crap from the left has put us into the situation where one must self-censor for fear of offending someone. Hey! Ya can't say your mind without "offending" someone on this planet. Not all are gonna agree with everything that everyone has to say, or whatever. I'm old enough to not give a crap and try to say my mind if I have something to offer. If the other person(s) doesn't agree with me, too bad for them. And, if the business owner has a problem with selling to whoever, that's his revenue loss and totally up to him to decide. Not some totalitarian government lackey with an honorific which he probably bought with butt kissing somebody. Ooops, there I go again, ranting.
We used to have a one-word term for this, and it was abhorred by freedom-loving types, like Objectivists pretend to be..."brainwashing".
The best and most benign example from the past century (translation: the one example I can use that won't get me inundated with indignant, hateful replies) is the war on tobacco.
See, I don't really care what people believe... so long as they come to their beliefs on their own, without having beliefs imposed on them by media, government, and others who lust for power over the human mind.
EDIT: oops... there's another example I can use, mostly because the campaign has been far less successful... "Climate Change" / Environmentalism.
Enough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We call everything that someone does not like discrimination...ever go into a store and a clerk is just not happy that day...what do you do...go to another clerk...get over yourself if you just can not realize that sometimes you just have to move on!!!!!!!!!!!!
The essential question which has bedeviled societies for the last 8000 years is whether the individual should be allowed to own and control his property in an absolute manner or whether the collective owns and controls all property in an absolute manner. The founding fathers in America chose a middle ground to limit the collective's ability to control via the Bill of Rights.
The limits lasted for about 100 years. Since then the collective began to exercise its strength by seizing or controlling private and commercial property via the Sherman Anti-trust Act, the income tax amendment, Anti-discrimination laws, Patriot Act, Kelo v New London amongst others.
Hence the mess we are now dealing with in Colorado comes down to whether one believes Jack Phillips the bakery owner has an absolute right to control his property or if the collective has that right. One can be an Individualist or a Collectivist but trying to be both is an impossibility.
A private business should be able to run its biz however it likes as long as it does no harm. Refusing service when other alternatives exist is not harm.
So when a person starts a business they suddenly don't own themselves any longer and they become chattel for the States (and their customers) to dictate if they can exercise their opinions and beliefs and whether or not they have a choice in who their efforts benefit???? THAT is NOT freedom, Maph.
Heddy Lamar -great engineering inventor who did not go to engineering school-oh and damned fine actress, she is the acknowledged inventor of the frequency hopping spread spectrum system which was highly valuable to military communications during WWII and after Madame Curie Voltaire's mistress we work with many highly talented female engineer/inventors all the time.
I'm afraid I have to agree with her on most points. If the government has the power to tell a homophobic baker he is required, by law, to bake a cake for a gay wedding, that same power can be used to tell me, a gay sound guy, that I'm required to provide the PA for a Westborough Baptist Church event.
the baker is NOT homophobic. He has strong beliefs regarding marriage. See my comment to Maph. He was interviewed recently in the Denver Post and was emphatic that he was not opposed to selling any other kind of cake to the couple, as well he said he felt no prejudice against the lifestyle-including staff for his shop.
Jack Phillips, the owner of Lakewood's Masterpiece Cakeshop, told local CBS affilate KCNC-TV that he has no problem with lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender (LGBT) customers or staff members -- but nonetheless does not support gay marriage.
"If it came to that point, we would close down the bakery before we would compromise our beliefs, so that may be what it comes to," Phillips said. "We'll see."
Phillips, who said he also rejected another same-sex couple's request for a wedding cake earlier this year, continued, "If gays come in and want to order birthday cakes or any cakes for any occasion, graduations, or whatever, I have no prejudice against that whatsoever. It's just the wedding cake -- not the people, not their lifestyle."-HuffPost, Gay Voices,12/15
>> Today, women discriminate against other women in physical science.
Maybe they know something you don't, specifically that women are generally inferior to men in physics (and engineering generally, for that matter). But in specific regard to physics, I would refer you to the desperate attempts by the CEEB to gender norm the Physics Level II Achievement test. After much effort and considerable angst, they concluded they could gender norm the test or test knowledge of physics - but not both. In point of fact, they determined that the women did slightly better than men when the problems were "cookbook" requiring simple computation. But for more advanced problems in physics requiring more original thinking (the part that made the test "Level II") the women failed miserably.
Bear in mind that this is the major testing organization for most college admissions, and that they were greatly concerned that their tests might be "prejudicial" on a gender basis, and that they were willing to reformulate the entire test to get a gender-normed result with the single caveat that the test had to test advanced knowledge of physics.
It couldn't be done.
Now, for a real-world look at women in physics/engineering, go to any university and check the student population. Majority women? Mostly. Except maybe at the academies and at engineering schools. Go to the college of engineering. Majority women? Hell no. Not even close. Is it because engineering doesn't pay well? Because it's a career with no future? Is it because a woman will make more money with a degree in English Literature? Is it because women are being discriminated against in engineering? (If so, how… exactly how?) Or is it more likely that women's brains just don't work that way?
I'm not saying that there's no such thing as a good female engineer (though I've yet to meet one). But if you had to bet on credentials, i'd go with the male engineer. For one thing, I know his grades haven't been inflated by a "politically correct" instructor.
It is not rational to "discriminate" against any group of people, with the possible exception of a group that is reasonably perceived as being a potential threat to person, property, etc. That said, it is not unlawful to be irrational (unfortunately). Many anti-discrimination laws are an attempt to legislate thinking. It can't be done.
cities also tend to pass more regulatory laws that keep immigrants from starting their own businesses out of a car on the street corner. What about Mayor Emmanuel telling Chick Fil A not to have stores in HIS tolerant urban center? . what's with the evil suburbia vs benevolent city reasoning? you can find bigotry anywhere-why do you think cities tend to fall out geographically by culture-chinatown to little havana? what about the moslems who killed the soldier right in the middle of a benevolent city city street in London? In suburbia it's just town. Have you spent much time in suburbia? Because I have lived in different suburban neighborhoods most of my adult life and this bigotry label you want to make by association I find to be highly inaccurate and somewhat insulting. Owners of companies are allowed to have opinions. People feel personally about what the word marriage means-that is not bigotry. If there is any correlation to Chick fil a's sales increasing during the time they were in the news for the owner's views, have you considered the publicity itself increased front of mind about a restaurant you hadn't been to recently? why jump to the conclusion it was about supporting a a political agenda? In the case of the bakery, they closed their business due to numerous death threats, vandalism and time and money over the court case. I did not read their business increased over the case which was publicized by the gay couple not the baker btw.
I disagree with your line of reasoning on the LAWS, but I do agree with you on you observations about CULTURE.
"A restaurant in Orange County, California that didn't serve black people would find no shortage of customers. ... a story about a lesbian couple that was turned away when they tried to buy a wedding cake ... the bakery's customer base increased by quite a bit."
Chick Fil A - even here in Austin, the most liberal city in Texas (or the ONLY liberal city in Texas), they are doing well despite or because of their homophobia.
The way that business works against discrimination is precisely in the ANONYMITY of commerce: everyone's money is green. Remove that, and people can choose on any ground, rational or not.
I point out also that Orange County is SUBURBAN, not urban. In the city, irrational discrimination is less salient because cities bring together so many different kinds of people. We do still get these incidents over housing and neighborhood in NYC, Boston, etc., true enough, but in daily commerce, it just is not practical. The KKK was marching in Washington DC with their hoods off, at the same time as the Harlem Renaissance. Tap dance was invented when Irish gangs and Colored gangs in Five Points mixed their styles on the street corners. Cities do that.
No one was going to let a colored family move in next door because some guy made peanut butter. Carver was rejected from the first college he was accepted to when they saw that he was a Negro. His work across many fields was not recognized widely until 1941, just before his death.
And Frederick Douglass lived before Jim Crow. The re-segregation laws of the post-Reconstruction era came after the states were re-admitted. Plessy v. Ferguson was not heard until 1896, a year AFTER Douglass's death.
The succeeding 50 years were the days of segregation that were changed. Americans are all about sports as an equalizer. It is why baseball was the national pastime. You probably do not know little guys like Luis Aparicio, another "minority" player whose presence was (racially) unremarkable by 1961, only 15 years after Jackie Robinson, but in the middle of the whole Civil Rights Marches and all that. By then, 1961, the discussion was over... but it would be three more years before the 1964 Civil Rights Bill announced that Congress got the message.
Anyway, the point is that sports and business are the equalizers in America. Baseball is the national sport precisely because it is democratic. The mix of skills do not favor mere strength and size.
Sadly and I mean horribly sadly, science is still a domain for racial and sexual discrimination, precisely because it is ACADEMIC and POLITICAL and often TAX-SUPPORTED. (The Jews who built the atomic bomb did not come from Ivy League schools; most came from Europe. Feynman went to MIT before he went to Princeton. Ivy League schools limited Jewish enrollment to 10% lest the WASPS be swamped.) Today, women discriminate against other women in physical science. That is a proven statistical study just a couple of years ago: in a blind test of resumes for a lab manager's job, senior managers women and men alike, rated male candidates more qualified than female despite the absolute equality of their credentials. (Read about it here: http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2012/09/2...)
In computers, the matter seems to be different: Carly Fiornina, Marissa Mayer. My first job as a computer operator in 1978, I had a female boss and have had many since.
Totally disagree. She makes several baseless assumptions and makes many false claims that demonstrate she has no clue how discrimination actually works.
Racist/Prejudiced businesses would go bankrupt. ** There is no evidence to support this theory. It is pure, baseless speculation. The claim that the entire populace would be so outraged that they would refuse to buy anything from the business is a theory with no factual evidence behind it. A certain percentage of the population would be enraged enough to boycott the business, sure, but the masses would probably largely be indifferent, and the bottom line of the business would not be negatively impacted. In some cases, being racist or prejudiced could actually make a business MORE profitable, if the general population is racist as well. A restaurant in Orange County, California that didn't serve black people would find no shortage of customers.
Speaking of the baseless assumption that discrimination automatically leads to bankruptcy, a few months ago I saw a story about a lesbian couple that was turned away when they tried to buy a wedding cake at a particular bakery (exact same situation as was being discussed in the previous topic, but a different bakery and a different couple). When word got out that the bakery had discriminated against the couple, the bakery's customer base increased by quite a bit. There were so many bigoted, homophobic people in that area that the bakery's discrimination was seen as a positive by the general population, and helped to increase the owner's revenues. The lesson? The free market does NOT, in fact, eliminate discrimination automatically.
Law doesn't change culture. ** This is totally untrue. Law has a tremendous impact on culture. Anything which is illegal is stigmatized as evil. Most people make no distinction between legality and morality, and they base their views of the second on the status of the first. A big reason racism was so bad before before the Civil Rights Movement was because it was legally required and enforced by law. If you give something a legal sanction, you give it a moral sanction, and thereby allow it to flourish. Legality and morality cannot be separated in the eye of the public.
No body should be forced to provide a service for another person. ** Actually, if they're a business owner and they're providing service to the general public, yes they should. A business owner can control almost every aspect of his business, but he cannot choose his customers. As for the hypothetical example she uses at the end where members of the Westboro Baptist Church come into a business owned by a gay person and the gay business owner has to provide them service, I suppose yeah, he would. Religion is, after all, a legally protected status under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But if that's the price for equality, then so be it.
Now keep in mind that although the gay business owner could not kick them out simply because they're members of the Westboro Baptist Church, he COULD kick them out if they started shouting, causing a ruckus, and/or harassing other customers. There is no legal protection for disruptive behavior.
She says that a better plan is to change the culture and make it more accepting of diverse people, but what she fails to realize is that the fact that bigoted business owners have to keep the their bigotry a secret is proof that such change has already occurred. It shows that such views are not accepted.
Ultimately, eliminating bigotry is not possible, so instead we have to settle for creating a society in which it is stigmatized and punished. That's the only way to keep it under control.
The United States should be an exception. Hence "American exceptionalism".
As every government in the history of mankind does this, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a totalitarian state that suits you, no need to make one here.
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thanks for the correction. chemist or engineer-both hard sciences, let's not split hairs
And, if the business owner has a problem with selling to whoever, that's his revenue loss and totally up to him to decide. Not some totalitarian government lackey with an honorific which he probably bought with butt kissing somebody. Ooops, there I go again, ranting.
The 9th of December was Grace Hopper's birthday, if you missed the Google doodle.
In the documentary "Something Ventured" about the financial successes in Silicon Valley is the story of Sandra Lerner of Cisco Systems.
We used to have a one-word term for this, and it was abhorred by freedom-loving types, like Objectivists pretend to be..."brainwashing".
The best and most benign example from the past century (translation: the one example I can use that won't get me inundated with indignant, hateful replies) is the war on tobacco.
See, I don't really care what people believe... so long as they come to their beliefs on their own, without having beliefs imposed on them by media, government, and others who lust for power over the human mind.
EDIT:
oops... there's another example I can use, mostly because the campaign has been far less successful... "Climate Change" / Environmentalism.
The limits lasted for about 100 years. Since then the collective began to exercise its strength by seizing or controlling private and commercial property via the Sherman Anti-trust Act, the income tax amendment, Anti-discrimination laws, Patriot Act, Kelo v New London amongst others.
Hence the mess we are now dealing with in Colorado comes down to whether one believes Jack Phillips the bakery owner has an absolute right to control his property or if the collective has that right. One can be an Individualist or a Collectivist but trying to be both is an impossibility.
Well, I guess he did play a tennis pro in "I Spy".
Of course, Levar Burton was probably some kind of sports figure, before making "Roots" and "Star Drek: the Next Germination"
Freedom of association is a two way street.
Madame Curie wasn't an engineer, was she?
Madame Curie
Voltaire's mistress
we work with many highly talented female engineer/inventors all the time.
"If it came to that point, we would close down the bakery before we would compromise our beliefs, so that may be what it comes to," Phillips said. "We'll see."
Phillips, who said he also rejected another same-sex couple's request for a wedding cake earlier this year, continued, "If gays come in and want to order birthday cakes or any cakes for any occasion, graduations, or whatever, I have no prejudice against that whatsoever. It's just the wedding cake -- not the people, not their lifestyle."-HuffPost, Gay Voices,12/15
Maybe they know something you don't, specifically that women are generally inferior to men in physics (and engineering generally, for that matter). But in specific regard to physics, I would refer you to the desperate attempts by the CEEB to gender norm the Physics Level II Achievement test. After much effort and considerable angst, they concluded they could gender norm the test or test knowledge of physics - but not both. In point of fact, they determined that the women did slightly better than men when the problems were "cookbook" requiring simple computation. But for more advanced problems in physics requiring more original thinking (the part that made the test "Level II") the women failed miserably.
Bear in mind that this is the major testing organization for most college admissions, and that they were greatly concerned that their tests might be "prejudicial" on a gender basis, and that they were willing to reformulate the entire test to get a gender-normed result with the single caveat that the test had to test advanced knowledge of physics.
It couldn't be done.
Now, for a real-world look at women in physics/engineering, go to any university and check the student population. Majority women? Mostly. Except maybe at the academies and at engineering schools. Go to the college of engineering. Majority women? Hell no. Not even close. Is it because engineering doesn't pay well? Because it's a career with no future? Is it because a woman will make more money with a degree in English Literature? Is it because women are being discriminated against in engineering? (If so, how… exactly how?) Or is it more likely that women's brains just don't work that way?
I'm not saying that there's no such thing as a good female engineer (though I've yet to meet one). But if you had to bet on credentials, i'd go with the male engineer. For one thing, I know his grades haven't been inflated by a "politically correct" instructor.
Owners of companies are allowed to have opinions. People feel personally about what the word marriage means-that is not bigotry. If there is any correlation to Chick fil a's sales increasing during the time they were in the news for the owner's views, have you considered the publicity itself increased front of mind about a restaurant you hadn't been to recently? why jump to the conclusion it was about supporting a a political agenda? In the case of the bakery, they closed their business due to numerous death threats, vandalism and time and money over the court case. I did not read their business increased over the case which was publicized by the gay couple not the baker btw.
"A restaurant in Orange County, California that didn't serve black people would find no shortage of customers. ... a story about a lesbian couple that was turned away when they tried to buy a wedding cake ... the bakery's customer base increased by quite a bit."
Chick Fil A - even here in Austin, the most liberal city in Texas (or the ONLY liberal city in Texas), they are doing well despite or because of their homophobia.
The way that business works against discrimination is precisely in the ANONYMITY
of commerce: everyone's money is green. Remove that, and people can choose on any ground, rational or not.
I point out also that Orange County is SUBURBAN, not urban. In the city, irrational discrimination is less salient because cities bring together so many different kinds of people. We do still get these incidents over housing and neighborhood in NYC, Boston, etc., true enough, but in daily commerce, it just is not practical. The KKK was marching in Washington DC with their hoods off, at the same time as the Harlem Renaissance. Tap dance was invented when Irish gangs and Colored gangs in Five Points mixed their styles on the street corners. Cities do that.
And Frederick Douglass lived before Jim Crow. The re-segregation laws of the post-Reconstruction era came after the states were re-admitted. Plessy v. Ferguson was not heard until 1896, a year AFTER Douglass's death.
The succeeding 50 years were the days of segregation that were changed. Americans are all about sports as an equalizer. It is why baseball was the national pastime. You probably do not know little guys like Luis Aparicio, another "minority" player whose presence was (racially) unremarkable by 1961, only 15 years after Jackie Robinson, but in the middle of the whole Civil Rights Marches and all that. By then, 1961, the discussion was over... but it would be three more years before the 1964 Civil Rights Bill announced that Congress got the message.
Anyway, the point is that sports and business are the equalizers in America. Baseball is the national sport precisely because it is democratic. The mix of skills do not favor mere strength and size.
Sadly and I mean horribly sadly, science is still a domain for racial and sexual discrimination, precisely because it is ACADEMIC and POLITICAL and often TAX-SUPPORTED. (The Jews who built the atomic bomb did not come from Ivy League schools; most came from Europe. Feynman went to MIT before he went to Princeton. Ivy League schools limited Jewish enrollment to 10% lest the WASPS be swamped.) Today, women discriminate against other women in physical science. That is a proven statistical study just a couple of years ago: in a blind test of resumes for a lab manager's job, senior managers women and men alike, rated male candidates more qualified than female despite the absolute equality of their credentials. (Read about it here:
http://orgtheory.wordpress.com/2012/09/2...)
In computers, the matter seems to be different: Carly Fiornina, Marissa Mayer. My first job as a computer operator in 1978, I had a female boss and have had many since.
Racist/Prejudiced businesses would go bankrupt.
** There is no evidence to support this theory. It is pure, baseless speculation. The claim that the entire populace would be so outraged that they would refuse to buy anything from the business is a theory with no factual evidence behind it. A certain percentage of the population would be enraged enough to boycott the business, sure, but the masses would probably largely be indifferent, and the bottom line of the business would not be negatively impacted. In some cases, being racist or prejudiced could actually make a business MORE profitable, if the general population is racist as well. A restaurant in Orange County, California that didn't serve black people would find no shortage of customers.
Speaking of the baseless assumption that discrimination automatically leads to bankruptcy, a few months ago I saw a story about a lesbian couple that was turned away when they tried to buy a wedding cake at a particular bakery (exact same situation as was being discussed in the previous topic, but a different bakery and a different couple). When word got out that the bakery had discriminated against the couple, the bakery's customer base increased by quite a bit. There were so many bigoted, homophobic people in that area that the bakery's discrimination was seen as a positive by the general population, and helped to increase the owner's revenues. The lesson? The free market does NOT, in fact, eliminate discrimination automatically.
Law doesn't change culture.
** This is totally untrue. Law has a tremendous impact on culture. Anything which is illegal is stigmatized as evil. Most people make no distinction between legality and morality, and they base their views of the second on the status of the first. A big reason racism was so bad before before the Civil Rights Movement was because it was legally required and enforced by law. If you give something a legal sanction, you give it a moral sanction, and thereby allow it to flourish. Legality and morality cannot be separated in the eye of the public.
No body should be forced to provide a service for another person.
** Actually, if they're a business owner and they're providing service to the general public, yes they should. A business owner can control almost every aspect of his business, but he cannot choose his customers. As for the hypothetical example she uses at the end where members of the Westboro Baptist Church come into a business owned by a gay person and the gay business owner has to provide them service, I suppose yeah, he would. Religion is, after all, a legally protected status under the Civil Rights Act of 1964. But if that's the price for equality, then so be it.
Now keep in mind that although the gay business owner could not kick them out simply because they're members of the Westboro Baptist Church, he COULD kick them out if they started shouting, causing a ruckus, and/or harassing other customers. There is no legal protection for disruptive behavior.
She says that a better plan is to change the culture and make it more accepting of diverse people, but what she fails to realize is that the fact that bigoted business owners have to keep the their bigotry a secret is proof that such change has already occurred. It shows that such views are not accepted.
Ultimately, eliminating bigotry is not possible, so instead we have to settle for creating a society in which it is stigmatized and punished. That's the only way to keep it under control.
You hear the one about the lesbian Polack...?
Her purpose is to "out" people she disagrees with for purposes of their persecution. Suits me.
As every government in the history of mankind does this, I'm sure you'll have no problem finding a totalitarian state that suits you, no need to make one here.
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