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Who is it that is expecting a free ride?

Posted by kevinw 9 years, 11 months ago to Politics
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In a recent discussion about patriotism on a post by Abaco here; http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/2e... khalling linked to this Atlas Society video of Alexander Cohen making the case for patriotism as a virtue that Objectivists could embrace; http://www.atlassociety.org/as/john-galt...

That conversation tended to revolve around the vague definition and how people would apply it (or not) to their lives and Mr. Cohen expressed a definition of patriotism that I would much rather have as the standard. But what caught my attention in the video was Cohen's point that people who enjoy the advantages of the system we were left with by the founding fathers but are not willing to put forth the effort to protect it or improve it are, essentially, expecting a free ride. I personally know several people who are completely willing to pick up a gun and fight but will not lift a finger, nor spare a moment's thought on how to stop it before it comes to that. Not even vote. I would say that they don't even truly understand what it is that they would be laying down their lives for.

We've all heard (possibly even said) the phrase "if you don't vote, you can't complain". Now I'm wondering, is voting even enough? Obviously any idiot can vote.

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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The "earned income credit" is actually a step in the right direction, because it reduces the size of the "cliffs" (points where increasing your earnings a little causes a sudden huge reduction in your income by making you no longer eligible for various benefits). Until we can get rid of the dole entirely, I would increase EIC if I could, making it a substitute for benefit systems that are both more complicated (and thus expensive to administer) and less fair. This is why Milton Friedman proposed the idea in the first place.

    The real underlying problem, in terms of voting, is that most voters don't understand economics and the consequences of policies like a welfare state, and what's worse, they "know" a false version of economics and aren't willing to learn better. This is the biggest success of leftist public "education."
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Indeed, the Constitution doesn't allow for a federal welfare state outside of DC. Nor do I prefer that a welfare state exist.

    Of course rational voters would vote themselves freebies and/or well-paying government jobs (unless they're paying attention to a long enough time frame that it doesn't pay -- and if they're near the end of their lives there may be no reason for them to look that far ahead). You can't expect people not to act selfishly -- you have to design the system to prevent that sort of abuse.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't you think that it is perfectly natural that a rational animal guided by his rational self-interest would vote for things that benefit him? Then the question turns on who decides what and how. Where do you see in our Constitution the provision for a welfare state? What kind of "common good" is the one where you confiscate from me in order to give to yourself and to those whom you like or for whom you feel sorry because of their lack of talent?

    Just asking.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My proposal is not intended to "punish mooching" so much as to prevent blocs of voters with an obvious conflict of interest (to keep the tax money flowing to themselves) from deciding elections. It would cost me my own vote too, but it would do more to turn our country in a small-government direction than anything else I can think of.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Oh, don't get me going on global warming. The climate change is just their code for global warming. Completely in accord with so many instances of obfuscation by redefining terms away from their common earlier definitions.

    They had to fabricate and falsify to "prove" their theses. I am a proud 'denier", despised by the criminal zealots. Ever heard of scientific "consensus"? The theories are proven, not by vote, to be true or false by independent researchers conducting their own experiments to prove or disprove, all data and methods published for anybody to analyze. These people have permanently damaged the reputation of science and scientist. Assisted by ignoramuses in the media and in the government, who have each their own hidden agendae.

    I apologize for the outburst. This subject cuts deep into my nerves.
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That is interesting. I asked you because one of my high school friends emigrated to Switzerland. He was a dentist. Once, when I visited them, he told me that after they applied for citizenship, I do not know how many years after they moved there, a "committee" of their neighbors had to inspect their house and looked, among many other things, under their beds to see if they could find any of those lose cobweb-like things and dust. He understood that if they had found those things, they would have been denied the citizenship. Some "freedom".
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So, even though I own more than one property, since I receive a military pension, I would not be able to vote under your scope. By taxes, I pay them big time due to my job as a senior electrician and definitely pay for my military retirement plus a lot more. I probably pay enough for my mom's Social Security also. I figure if you get more back than you pay in then you don't pay, you get paid or in my parlance, you are moocher and don't deserve to vote.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As little as I like taxes having only those people who pay taxes be able to vote would certainly keep the taxes down -- as long as 'paying taxes' meant actually paying taxes not receiving an 'earned income credit' as many of the illegal aliens will.

    I don't think that receiving social security should count against voting, though. Rand considered it restitution for the money taken.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't like the idea of having to pay taxes to vote. But I wouldn't mind at all going back to having to own real estate to vote (a thing some states had in the past, and which is still constitutionally possible), and I would love it if anyone receiving a government check (whether it's a salary, the dole, or Social Security) had to give up their vote.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To be fair, their foreign policy is not the only thing that has kept the Swiss at peace. It also helps that: (1) they are a small country with no resources valuable enough to tempt someone to attack; for example, no oil and no rare minerals; (2) they are surrounded by mountains that would favor the defense in a war fought across them, no matter which side is the attacker; and (3) in the case of WW2, they made themselves useful to the Nazis by letting their leaders hide their loot in Swiss banks, and by cooperating to prevent Jews from gaining asylum there.

    Because of points (1) and (2) I'm not at all sure that adopting the Swiss foreign policy would be as successful for the US as it has been for the Swiss -- and in addition I think Americans would resist the draft even more than we did in the Viet Nam era.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Science has gotten a bad name recently from a set of pretenders, mostly in the climate change area.

    Engineers have to deal with constraints, and with this government, they have to deal with far more constraints than they should or they used to have to deal with.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No. One of my sisters lived there for some decades. The Swiss control things like 'what plants you are allowed to plant along the street'. Every facet of life seems to have a regulation that tells you how to do it. (The US is getting this way!)

    I loved visiting my sister, but after a while Switzerland drove me crazy. It was like trying to live in a picture postcard. I wanted WEEDS and Big Open Spaces and enough variation that I could see that people were doing what they wanted to do as opposed to what they were told to do.

    Jan
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. A Swiss business acquaintance once told ne that they keep their military personal armament at home, as well as uniforms.

    Do you think that by now Switzerland is not freer than the US?
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I also donate copies of Atlas Shrugged to people that I find here and there who have not read it yet. My preferred targets are small business owners and the young.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. If no volunteer army, then why are we fighting? BUT If there were to be a draft, it should include women.

    Jan, not a second class citizen
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I have been recently doing some research on this question. The Swiss tradition of military service for all men began in the 14th century - back when Switzerland was a loose confederation of Alpine valleys. Then the Cantons discovered that efficient warfare was their only economic export, and the famed Swiss mercenaries began.

    So there is a long history of arming the Swiss populace. This tradition has been held to be the reason that Switzerland has not been invaded on several occasions...as recently as the 1950's. I would like for this tradition of an armed and trained citizenry to take root in the USA - it is legitimately part of our own heritage, which we are loosing with the passing of time.

    I would like to reclaim this tradition.

    Jan
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  • Posted by johnpe1 9 years, 11 months ago
    if you don't produce more value than you consume,
    you are getting some portion of a free ride. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello, J,

    Thank you again.

    I have not thought much about the connection between science and Objectivism. It seams to me, at a first glance, that science is so deeply an exercise of reason and of cognitive ability, that it seems self-evident that there should be no conflicts or contradictions.

    On the other hand, I am deeply convinced that engineering is not a science and that it is "the art of things that work". To me this means that it is an artful application of scientific knowledge to invent and create products for a purpose which the engineer deems worth while. I remember not so long ago wondering whether I should re-study the "Romantic Manifesto" having engineering art in mind all the time and see where that lands me. I have not done it yet, but I think I will as soon as time allows.

    What do you think?

    Thanks again.

    All the best.
    Sincerely,
    Maritimus
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  • Posted by handyman 9 years, 11 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Martimus, you ask if there ever was a course on Objectivism. FYI, last year there was a course at the Univ. of NC, Asheville entitled Ayn Rand: Her Life and Her Philosophy. (http://olliasheville.com/courses/60056-2...) It was part of the "Life LOng Learrning series, not part of the undergrad curriculum, though. It's a start!
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