3 year old starved to death by her parents

Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago to The Gulch: General
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I do not mean to offend anyone here with this, but…

There are very few things that illicit an emotional reaction from me and this is one of them. People ask if I believe in the death penalty. Truthfully, I would volunteer to put the bullets in their heads myself. These two are complete, total, and 100% evil. They deserve to die.


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  • -4
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago
    I'm sure khalling is a good mother. I'm also sure she's a lousy moral philosopher.

    She also appears to be in denial in this thread, judging by her comments from two weeks ago:

    http://www.galtsgulchonline.com/posts/31...

    >Posted by $ khalling 2 weeks, 2 days ago

    KH wrote: "terminating support is not the same as murder. if there is a child sitting at my feet and I have plenty of food and I do not feed her, and she starves to death because of this, I am not committing murder. Even if I have fed her in the past.

    My duty is first and foremost to myself."

    >EF's response:
    If it's your child, and you intentionally withhold food from her, you most certainly are committing murder. And any jury in this country would justly find you guilty.

    [NB: see Foxnews article linked above in this thread]

    >KH's reply:
    yes, the jury would. Many laws are wrong, so what? . . . just because I have sex, does not mean I have contracted or made a moral obligation to support someone or become their slave.

    >EF's response:
    Sure it does, whether you wish to call your responbility to the effects of your actions "slavery" or not is irrelevant. And this is true whether or not the effects of your actions were unintentional, because an unexpected and undesired outcome — pregnancy — was forseeable and a possible outcome. You cannot say "I have no responsibility here because the effect was undesired on my part."

    That would be an upshot of pure hedonism, not rational selfishness.

    If you incur a debt intentionally or because you made an error in your financial transactions somewhere but knew that debt was a *possible* outcome in the deal, you still are responsible to repay the debt. You can't stiff your creditors by telling them, "I refuse to be your slave! I own myself, so I'm walking away from this debt."
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Kaila, the only thing that I am accusing you of is writing paragraphs where dissertations are required. I broke into technical writing via the Letters columns of "Industrial Research" and "Omni" magazines, among others. Even now, 30 year later, it takes me a day to write 250 words at an original and professional level. Blasting out opinions is somewhat different from that.

    I agree with you that the contexts are brutally complicated.

    BTW, if Kira had a daughter, I am not aware of it. I have not read the book in several decades, I confess, but no synopsis I found refers to that. And just to say, it was dramatic fiction. If it were me and my daughter, I would remain even in the USSR to see that she got the best life possible. Different objective people have different objective values
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I did not mean that just any old values that pop into your head can be the basis for an objective morality. I only meant that given the values that support and enhance life for a rational and realistic person, nonetheless, each us is unique; and our own lives bring unique circumstances -- otherwise we would all be architects.

    As you note, context must be allowed. See khalling's note after yours. It is heart-wrenching, but aid workers specifically must inure themselves to such situations. More commonly, people who work in hospitals only have so much empathy to give or they would be emotionally drained in the first hour of any day. Hospitals in particular in our generation began hiring ethicists just because the issues are so complicated and consequential.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What I clearly stated was there are situations in which I or someone else could have food but would not give it to someone starving. Even if I had fed them before. It is not contradictaory and it is consistent with Objectivism. See We The Living in which Kira gives up her child. You are free to disagree with Objectivism if you like but to accuse me of. Such you 'll have to try harder. I have given many scenarios in this thread where one might make that decision. If I am working for UNICEF and tour. A starving camp working very diligently to get food to the camp, I am not morally obligated no matter how bad I feel no matter how bad the starving to give up my food. In fact it would keep me from helping. Why is this so hard to see? Ah because this is really about abortion. And you are well aware of the Objectivist reasoning on that issue. So if you disagree with Objectist thinking on this as well fine. But don 't mislead contributors on this board as to what Objectivism holds. See Peikoff's article onthe right to Abortion is Right to life.
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  • Posted by Lucky 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    MM, this post above and the one 15 hours before- So what is the Objectivist response? In fact what is the mainstream public response? Before answering perhaps the situation should be defined.
    Consider this,
    1. Letting a child starve, you have food but decline to give.
    2. As above but it is your own child.
    3. There are ten, or a hundred, or thousands of starving children.
    4. you have no food but your neighbor has, do you use force to take it to give?
    If context is not allowed then answers to all situations must be the same.
    Ah, now I see, you say 'An action is moral or immoral depending on your values and the context'.
    Quite so.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The logic of the threads hid this under a Minus 6 post. I agree that these brief paragraphs begin to outline and frame the problem. +1.
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You mean "speaking abstractly, it would be all right for SOMEONE ELSE to do this, but not for me." That is not objective. We had this some months back with a libertarian who said that she regards abortion as taking a human life, so she would never have one, but she would not stop someone else from terminating a pregnancy. In other words, she would never kill an innocent human being, but she has no problem with someone else who does. So, too, here, do you assert that YOU would not starve your child, but someone else might and that would be all right. Do you not understand the inherent contradiction in those propositions? In other words, as I said before the name of the philosophy is not Absolutism or Formalism or Deontology. An action is moral or immoral depending on your values and the context. The very many sweeping statements we read here are not cogent analyses of difficult problems.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am trying to address the issues. many in here are quite happy to see me discussed in hearsay. I think that's weird. sorry your post was taken over by this
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So he has decided to use me as a sounding board for his insults aimed at another person? How very liberal of him.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am a loving mother. meet my kids. thriving. I did not raise them because a govt forced me to. Do not come into my living room and soil the carpet.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    will he is talking about me. he is accusing me of sanctioning killing children.
    I am having a philosophical discussion. We are looking for logical consistency. there should not be confusion over right to use force to cause someone to act on what YOU consider best action.
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  • Posted by Eyecu2 11 years, 3 months ago
    My only comment here is why is the mother being charged with 3rd degree while the father is charged with 1st degree. This is premeditated and both deserve first degree along with the death penalty.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you seriously think that starving a small child who cannot possibly fend for themselves to death is not killing them then I am very glad I do not know you.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    yes. The conversation they are taking issue with me on happened before Christmas and was regarding abortion. If I agree these parents acted immorally, they see my response as inconsistent with my position on abortion. They are incorrect.
    Their position, however, leaves room for the "duty" of the sister to feed the starving man from her own body in the end of The Grapes of Wrath, and by extension an argument can be made for slavery.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Mothers rarely "live" for their kids in the broadest sense of the word. their children may be the most significant part part of their life, but that is not living just for them.
    In "The Poisonwood Bible," there is a catastrophic event which has a mother helping her youngest child and her disabled child swim in dangerous water. at some point the mother lets go of the disabled child telling her to go back to shore very sternly. The disabled daughter grows up thinking that at that critical moment her mother did not choose her to survive. She eventually confronts her mother about this when she is grown and successful despite the handicap. Her mother is stunned that she felt this way all those years without asking her about that awful day. The mother's reasoning and choice was based on the fact that she knew the disabled daughter had tremendous will and keen problem solving. She knew that her daughter would be determined enough to have the best chance of the three of them to fight to survive the water. It is wrong for another individual to tell you what you must do in difficult moral dilemmas. That choice is yours alone and you must live with it and its consequences while someone else telling you your moral "duty" does not bear the consequences.
    This is of course in the context of not deliberately harming another.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This link i attached shows there was nothing moral happening around the 3 year old,
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    true. but this site explores the philosophy of Objectivism and many here may not know how these difficult moral questions are answered within the philosophy.
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  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    there is not a set answer in those circumstances and there is no set duty. If I think my life will not be worth living if something happens to someone I deeply love and care for, it is not immoral for me to sacrifice my life or take tremendous risk to save them. We do not put a mother in prison for refusing to give a kidney to her dying child. We may wonder at her decision, but since we do not know all of the *musts* in her life, it would be wrong to claim her action immoral.
    "Obligation" is an important word in Objectivist Ethics. It is the opposite of the anti-concept "duty" and a logical follow from final causation. "Man is confronted with a great many *musts*, but all of them are conditional..." -AR, Causality vs Duty, Philosophy Who Needs It
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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago
    First of all, I have to point out that the "libertarian" response alluded to by Lucky above would not be the Objectivist response. This goes to the wider problem of "open" versus "closed" Objectivism. To the extent that "libertarianism" is any kind of philosophy, some of its conclusions - such as laissez faire capitalism - might coincide with Objectivism. Before that and after that, it is anyone's guess what the "libertarian" theory of epistemology or morality might be.

    As for khalling's opinion's, she made it quite clear, explicitly, and as I recall verbatim, that starving a child to death could be her "egoistic" choice. She provided no context.

    (That would be a denial of Objectivism. However, as I pointed out, Leonard Peikoff warned that these online discussions encourage rapid response without integration or context. So, khalling may have much more to say. But so far, she has said exactly what EconomicFreedom cited from the earlier discussion of abortion.)

    That said, my own brief analysis follows.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    A few years back, maybe 10 or so, here in the metro area, we had a typical outbreak of tornadoes. A woman and her son were forced to take shelter under a highway overpass (people forget that the tornado itself is not all you have to defend against). As the wind built up, the son was hanging on for dear life, and the mother was hanging on to him.

    She said, "I love you, son".... and let go.

    They found her body about a quarter mile away, IIRC.

    No, you're not obligated to live for your child. But, some of us think the word "obligation" is neither accurate nor appropriate...
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This obligation is not linked to Objectivism. Any moral code would/should dictate this.
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