3 year old starved to death by her parents

Posted by $ WillH 11 years, 3 months ago to The Gulch: General
146 comments | Share | Flag

I do not mean to offend anyone here with this, but…

There are very few things that illicit an emotional reaction from me and this is one of them. People ask if I believe in the death penalty. Truthfully, I would volunteer to put the bullets in their heads myself. These two are complete, total, and 100% evil. They deserve to die.


All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 6.
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Heinlein has the answer to your query.

    "Since survival is the sine qua non, I now define "moral behavior" as "behavior that tends toward survival." I won't argue with philosophers or theologians who choose to use the word "moral" to mean something else, but I do not think anyone can define "behavior that tends toward extinction" as being "moral" without stretching the word "moral" all out of shape.

    We are now ready to observe the hierarchy of moral behavior from its lowest level to its highest.

    The simplest form of moral behavior occurs when a man or other animal fights for his own survival. Do not belittle such behavior as being merely selfish. Of course it is selfish. . .but selfishness is the bedrock on which all moral behavior starts and it can be immoral only when it conflicts with a higher moral imperative.
    "An animal so poor in spirit that he won't even fight on his own behalf is already an evolutionary dead end; the best he can do for his breed is to crawl off and die, and not pass on his defective genes.

    The next higher level is to work, fight, and sometimes die for your own immediate family. This is the level at which six pounds of mother cat can be so fierce that she'll drive off a police dog. It is the level at which a father takes a moonlighting job to keep his kids in college -- and the level at which a mother or father dives into a flood to save a drowning child. . .and it is still moral behavior even when it fails."
    ...
    "Spelled out in simple Anglo-Saxon words "Patriotism" reads "Women and children first!"

    And that is the moral result of realizing a self-evident biological fact: Men are expendable; women and children are not. A tribe or a nation can lose a high percentage of its men and still pick up the pieces and go on. . .as long as the women and children are saved. But if you fail to save the women and children, you've had it, you're done, you're THROUGH! You join tyrannosaurus rex, one more breed that bilged its final test.
    ...
    "Nevertheless, as a mathematical proposition in the facts of biology, children, and women of child-bearing age, are the ultimate treasure that we must save. Every human culture is based on 'Women and children first' -- and any attempt to do it any other way leads quickly to extinction."
    - Robert A. Heinlein "The Pragmatics of Patriotism".
    http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1165294...

    You do not necessarily have to live for your child. But, a woman who won't, can't rightly wear the proud badge of "mother", as there's something missing in her soul.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My disclaimer about not causing offense was not due to my belief in the death penalty. I don't particularly care if that offends someone or not. I thought that my willingness to remove these two from society might cause offense to some members, as I am someone who means what they say.

    The child was a living human being, and had a right to it's life. No, the parents did not have to feed the child, but they did have a responsibility to make sure the child was taken care of. They could have adopted the child out, dropped her off at a fire station, a hospital, a convent, etc. Instead they chose to stave the child until, at 11 pounds she finally died. That is force.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In Objectivism if the child is mine or under my care i have an obligation to care for him. If a situation arises and I cannot care for him I am obligated to safely give the child into another 's care. My moral obligation can end there. See surrogate situations, see unwed teen giving her child up for adoption.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by richrobinson 11 years, 3 months ago
    We really need more information here. The parents may not have been able to care for this child. How did no one else notice what was happening?
    How many people just didn't want to get involved? Truly a tragedy.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I gave several concrete situations. You chose not to address them. I discussed Kira 's decision in We The Living. I gave examples of starvation specifically.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I did not use the word egoistic. Nor would I. Both you and EF used that word. I said moral obligation.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ok I looked up what I said. IN the context of the argument i was referring to a situation of starvation for the person making the decision to withhold food from a child. I did not indicate the child was in my care. I did indicate that I had food.
    I havegiven this example again on this thread. We don't have all the facts of this particular case but in our society I think it fair to assume the parents had plenty of opportunity to give their child up without the child enduring harm. economic freedom wants to take this discussion back to abortion. This case is not the same.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by khalling 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I never said you could confine and starve a child. That 's force. However, a parent does not have a moral obligation to live for their child. Adoption is one way to terminate your responsibility. There are many circumstances where you agreed to take on the responsibility of raising a child but something changed and you can no longer. A mother and children are starving. Is she morally obligated to starve first? On every airplane flight you are instructed to place the oxygen mask over your face first then your child 's. In an emergency would that be immoral? Again, this moral obligation is demonstrated in We The Living. This situation is distinctly different. The parents committed severe child abuse resulting in the death of the three year old.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 11 years, 3 months ago
    The facts in the case beg investigation. Recognize that Objectivism is not called Absolutism or Formalism and most certainly is not Kantian Deontology. Context matters. Reality is the final arbiter. Logic is non-contradictory thinking. We know very little about this case. It is not helpful to make up "what if" scenarios. (See the article I linked to under "Philosophy" on the Fallacy of Metaphysical Impossibilities.) We do have this:
    "Officials said Nathalyz was born blind and unable to talk or walk. Associate Medical Examiner Andrew Rosen said her lack of nutrition and medical care was "glaring.""
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by Lucky 11 years, 3 months ago
    WillH- this Fox News article gives news that yes is offensive but your posting it and your opinions cause no offense to me.
    If it were up to me, well, I would consider carefully before loading.. ...
    This is a situation where prevention and punishment can be the subject of difference of opinion. Maybe to a libertarian, starving a child is bad but starving is not actual killing so no crime is committed, I await a libertarian response but I think it would be that the act of parenthood is a contract between parent and child. To an objectivist, there would be just enough of government to recognize the right of the child to property, its life, and to impose penalty.
    What is offensive is the gratuitous insult to a contributor to this forum made a few minutes ago. I hope it is not deleted by a moderator. Let it stand.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • -2
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Halling didn't specify any particular concrete situation. She upheld a general moral principle.

    Your statement is interesting. You're suggesting there are "moral" and "immoral" ways of withholding food from one's own infant until it does of starvation. Do tell.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • -3
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    >if KH wants to give her opinion on this specific article

    That's a rather unphilosophical, non-conceptual, and concrete-bound appraisal of the situation. Halling gave an opinion on a *general principle* regarding morality in a previous thread. For your information, general principles subsume concrete instances. The above story from Fox News is a concrete instance subsumed under Halling's general principle.

    The only relevant thing about Halling giving an opinion on the above story would be if she claimed it was morally abominable that the parents withheld food from their child until it died and that it represented a *crime*; for if she claimed that, she'd be contradicting the more general principle that she upheld in the earlier thread.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Posted by $ minniepuck 11 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    if KH wants to give her opinion on this specific article, she will speak for herself. there is no need to put words in the mouth of any member of this forum.
    Reply | Permalink  
  • Comment hidden due to member score or comment score too low. View Comment
  • -6
    Posted by EconomicFreedom 11 years, 3 months ago
    khalling would disagree with you. According to her, the parents' egoistic wants trump the survival needs of the infant if they decide they don't want it. By her lights, the parents have no moral obligation to help the infant survive.

    According to her, no crime has been committed here at all.
    Reply | Permalink  

  • Comment hidden. Undo