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Supreme Court extends same-sex marriage nationwide

Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 9 years, 10 months ago to Government
271 comments | Share | Flag

Well there you have it folks. Another decision that has the effect of complicating and distorting our language.

I personally have no problems with what the LGBT people do. It is only a matter of definitions and giving new meaning to existing words that bothers me. I believe that a new word should have been created and that equal rights in every way should be granted. Unfortunately now the word marriage will be less descriptive and specific. This has been the case of several decisions lately that only confound our language. The court believes it can re-write Webster's dictionary.
Respectfully,
O.A.

Addendum: Some final thoughts
After contemplating the arguments presented, I wish it understood that since I have no strong religious convictions on this matter, I have no personal problems with this ruling other than a minor irritation with the effective changing of the definition of the word marriage. I will have little difficulty adjusting my language and accepting the outcome. However, others of a contrary nature and the undoubted turmoil that will ensue for our nation will not likely foster comity. After all there are a very large number of people of religious convictions that will not wish to have their rights to practice and live by their beliefs abrogated.

I accept the absolute right of free association that is involved, but free association as a right cannot exist without its corollary of disassociation. One cannot objectively avoid recognition that this ruling will lead to the violation of rights of those that hold a contrary view by forcing them into associations they would otherwise avoid.

The problem’s origin seems to stem from the fact that the government has bestowed upon holders of a “marriage” license, benefits that others were not granted. This is unequal treatment and thus unjust. This is the crux of the problem and should be rectified and could be done easily by eliminating those benefits or granting them to everyone regardless of possession of such a license. It would seem that it is largely the result of government getting into something it should not have in the first place and as usual producing unanticipated consequences.

Is acquisition of this license in and of itself a fundamental right? If this were so, would it not apply to a driver’s license also? It has been understood that such a license is a privilege, which by definition one must qualify for. Taken to its ultimate conclusion, would not this line of reasoning lead one to conclude that any license or even contract that someone else can acquire is equally a right for all regardless of criteria? For instance should one demand that since some have contracts with the NBA that it should be the right of all so desiring? This is of course reductio ad absurdum.

What precedent for our nation and the effects upon states rights and the tenth amendment will this have? The implications are incalculable. The more cases that redefine the meaning of words, the more cases of the past will be in jeopardy. Without unchanging meanings we become a nation not of written laws, but of the whims of men and the political winds of the time. The fact that some words already have ambiguity is not a persuasive argument for acceptance of more of the same done with purpose born of temporary convenience or political correctness.

Some say (as the majority opinion did) that this is necessary to grant dignity and respect for the pro gay marriage crowd. This argument is specious since no government issued paper can grant dignity. Dignity is a reflection/matter of approval and acceptance of one's peers and the community.

Ultimately our nation will likely suffer further division and struggle with this issue just as we still do with Roe v. Wade. This is unfortunate since there were other alternatives. I hope it is not more than our ever more fragile peace between factions can handle. Frankly I hope I am wrong in this matter and we can move past it, but it does seem inevitable that our courts will be needlessly filled with cases where some “rights” are pitted against others. The mark of a legitimate fundamental right is that it does not conflict with others.

In closing, I would like to thank all those that have participated in this conversation and invite the reader to comment further as they desire.
Respectfully,
O.A.



All Comments


Previous comments...   You are currently on page 10.
  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    While this may be true, few contracts will last the requisite time to see essential language within change to the extent that it would harm the understanding of the contract.
    This change in language would not harm any contract, for example. I cannot fathom a contract that would now be useless or could be misinterpreted because marriage, by law, can now be two men instead of previously it could only be a man and a woman.
    Changing language is part of life. That is why we do not have the same dictionary year after year. New words come into existence... Old ones develop new meanings (take gay, fag, or dike for example [like how I kept with the theme?]), and general understanding of concepts changes over time. Marriage used to be a very religious matter, it also was once used primarily to exchange dowries, or seal treaties. Today's understanding is a very personal one, about the desires of two individuals to be together, the state has created benefits, and private institutions have developed certain assumptions and manners of behavior that make marriage very much a part of our lives. Who is to say this is the "best" or optimal way to look at marriage? A change is only bad if the result is worse than what existed previously. But you cannot consider and argument against a change rational if your only argument is that it's different from what existed before.
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  • Posted by herk7769 9 years, 10 months ago
    So using the same "Equal Protection" logic, substitute "License to Marry in one state must be honored in all states" to "License to Carry" and see where THAT goes.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What you state is true.
    But that will not restrain the protestors who block the entrance of the church and interfere with marriages that are performed there.
    How will local police respond? How wil the state governor respond when the gay and lesbian protestors show up at the capital to "encourage" his action?
    Central power decisions on these issues are just wrong, and we would be better off with no supreme court than this abortion pretending to be one.
    (I am just pissed off at those jerks pretending to be justices.)
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  • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This alarmism about marrying dogs, trucks and cats is getting tiresome. Dogs, trucks and cats cannot enter into valid contracts. Marriage is a form of contract. Is that so hard to understand? As to family members and multiple partners the laws prohibiting such unions were implemented as a result of purported medical concerns, societal taboos and religious prohibitions. Whether those will change remains to be seen. Some such prohibitions, like forbidding miscegenation, have already fallen and others have not. As to plural marriage, the mainstream Mormon church forbids it and will probably oppose any move in that direction. What the courts will do is a tossup. But none of this is a valid excuse for handwringing over the allowance of gay marriage. There is simply no reason for the state to forbid two people from entering into a marriage contract or any other kind of contract assuming competency and adulthood. Oh, and because it seems necessary on this forum to add this comment: This doesn't affect me at all.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I cannot make the world 'all better', Alas! But I can try to mentally keep the issues straight.

    'Gay marriage' now has universal permission to exist in the US. (This is not the end of the world.) 'Permission' does not equal 'requirement'.

    If a particular church/pastor refuses to perform gay marriages* then that is their right to do so. If the congregation of that church goes elsewhere over the years, then that is people 'voting with their feet'; likewise if the congregation doubles.

    Jan
    *or bakeries, gay wedding cakes
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  • Posted by jabuttrick 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    While there is a good chance of such lawsuits they will not succeed in forcing the religious organizations to perform marriages. As to the Church's tax exempt status, that may indeed be challenged but I strongly doubt it will succeed. We live in a country with firmly entrenched religious interests supported by a sizable number of adherents. The Churches view their special status as vested and the Courts will be loathe to strip it.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Should, yes.
    But not in the dictatorship of the mass media that stirs up the property defacers and destroyers against anyone who disagrees with their politically correct mantra.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not personally see a need for religion, but I observe that many pleasant and rational people do. I am unwilling to do anything that limits their right to conceive of the universe, or some portion thereof, in a faith-based fashion: These are people who I would like to have as neighbors.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That is a different issue. The hypothetical church in question should also be free to not perform such a ceremony.

    Jan
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The easiest illustration of the importance of fixed definitions is the law (I am specifically addressing law because it is the topic of this post). Without fixed, defined language, no contracts can be created because no one would know how they would be "interpreted" down the line.
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  • Posted by $ jlc 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes. This ruling represents an end to a limitation on the freedom of an individual.

    Jan
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't see a decision by the court as anything other than what it is... A pronouncement to the government of what I can and cannot do. It does not change me or how I feel about myself at all. It just allows me to be treated equally under the law. That is the only reason I feel it is important, that it improves a basic tenant of Liberty.
    Also your assessment of the court is so spot on I could barely breathe from laughing. Thank you for that.

    Btw everyone take note of AL OK and MS. All three are in the process of ending the issuance of marriage licenses. I think that's a good thing. Everyone will simply have a civil union.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    By requiring legislation I mean at this point eliminating the state's role in marriage needs to be done by passing a new law. Or someone needs to sue based on the concept that the state has no right to regulate marriage. SCOTUS could not have gone that route without breaking major rules.
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  • Posted by Herb7734 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    To me, this is a non-issue and has no bearing on hardly anything relevant to running the government. Why it came to the attention of the SCOTUS is beyond me. Gays may have legal conjunction with or without a wedding ceremony. The need for the pronouncement that it is a wedding is merely a conceit. As to the opposition to gay marriage, and the legalities that go along with it, it is as silly as the sun revolving around the earth. John, if you think that a pronouncement by the Supremes was needed, I think you are just as wrong as those who wanted the opposite decision. Also, to be blunt, this Supreme Court is occupied by three real judges, three schmucks, an idiot a villain and a wimp. Whatever they rule carries all the weight of a bosun.
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  • Posted by WilliamCharlesCross 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You put it well. As this issue has no immediate relevance to me, the one thing I will sit back and "wait and see" is if there is ever a case promoting the 2 of one kind marrying one (or more) of the other. The Mormons are always in the background on this issue. Can now be their time?
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  • Posted by RobertFl 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't think it required legislation. It is a civil contract. All the protection of marriage would have been provided by a simply Will and power of attorney. Survivor benefits, and tax deductions wouldn't have. That's why I've said, this wasn't about love, this was about money. Two people do not need the state to recognize their affections for one another. In the end, it doesn't impact me, so I don't care. It's just that the courts should have said, marriage means something to one group, which is not the same meaning to the state. The state mis-appropriated the term "marriage" when they should have adopted "civil union"
    Because I can see two senior citizens having a civil union contract, it doesn't have to about love. Just two people that look out for one another. Allowing "gay marriage" instead of civil union precludes those senior citizens from the same benefit
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Your reply sparked my imagination.
    I visualized a photo of the rainbow White House placed beside a portrait of a smiling Obama on a huge billboard.
    Then I imagined people in China pointing at it and laughing their heads off.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Keep in mind that the court cannot invent solutions to a lawsuit. It must either side with The plaintiff or the defendant. I cannot say "screw both of you I am creating this law instead." The plaintiff wanted to be allowed to obtain a marriage license, and the defendant wanted to restrict it. The court could only decide to agree with one of those two options.
    Your solution is a good one, but it must be done through legislation.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Since marriage is a contract (as the state has made it over decades of precedent), the answer to your question about a man marrying his dog is an obvious "no." This is because animals cannot enter into contracts.
    Also, one is not "disenfranchised" when your ability to dictate and to others how they must act is removed from you. That is exactly what he does with religious convictions were doing with marriage. They were giving special benefits and rights to those who followed their beliefs.
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  • Posted by RobertFl 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The courts set up the next law suit, the said marriage was between two consenting adults. That means the polygamist will have to fight the courts themselves, but, that is coming.
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  • Posted by hattrup 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sounds exactly right to me. The State creates a priveledged group -so expect others to want to join in for the special benefits and/or protections.

    This will continue to get more complicated with the increasing number of catagories for "sex" , not just male or female, and of course, why just limit the benefit group to two? There seems to be no legitimate legal reason not to have the "marriage" State protections extend to a group of any size.

    Eliminating this State enforced relationship protection is the way out of this mess - most States got involved to control interracial marriage...The State should never have got involved in this in the first place.
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  • Posted by JohnConnor352 9 years, 10 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Isn't winning an argument in court the definition of winning in the marketplace of ideas, as opposed to the opposite which is using violence?
    This is not saying what people can think, act, or do you personally. This is saying that the citizens of a state cannot discriminate against same-sex couples. It was the citizens of those states that wished to control and restrict marriage who were actually doing the dictating.
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