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Yes, Conservatives, Islam Is a Religion

Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I've noticed on the site lately, more and more comments by our more conservative and religious members speaking about the evil of Islam. I've wanted to reply to many of those commenters and posters about the topic of this article, and after reading this article, I'm glad I waited. I couldn't have said it any better. It's not Islam that's the problem--it's religion.



"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.

Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.

'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .

Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .

To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'

If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.

Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.

The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."



Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.

Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?


All Comments


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  • Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Have you ever read the Qu'ran? You can find it in English online. You will find that Jesus is acknowledged as the Messiah, and Mary as the Virgin. Your first paragraph is just common misinformation.

    BTW, just because you never saw a ghost does not make them unreal. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio…
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  • Posted by jimslag 9 years, 9 months ago
    First off, let me say that I was raised in the Catholic Church. I have spent a major portion of my life moving around the world (Thanks US Navy) experiencing different cultures and religions. Religions are beliefs not knowledge. There is knowledge contained in their tomes but the general thesis is belief in an entity as supreme. If you look at cults, like Jim Jones in Guyana or the apocalyptic cult that tried suicide on 2K, they all are based on belief in the leader who is to guide you to a greater place. Religions are just like cults only on a bigger scale. They all have leaders, pastors, priests, rabbis or imans, who are there to guide them in their beliefs. I am sorry if I destroy your objectivity about your theocratic religious choice but I have read and experienced a lot about different religions while seeking some guidance. Most of that guidance was directed in it's manner towards their point of view, not to the individual inner being. I still follow Catholic teachings but am not part of any church. I still believe in a creator or God, just have a extreme distaste for religious ceremony and harping on how to live my life to achieve a greater state of being, with most of it being hypocritical.
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  • Posted by Riftsrunner 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Islam isn't a variant of Christianity. They are two of the Abrahamic religions with Judaism as the third. Islam claims origin from Abraham's other son Ismael who was banishished into the desert after Isaac's mother wanted her son to gain inheritance over her concubine's son (First born males were giving the right to inheritance).In Islam Jesus is just another prophet like all the others from the Old Testament. So there is no divinity to Jesus in Islam unlike any of the Christian religions.

    I do agree that religion will become relegated to the margins of society, unfortunately I fear it will never leave us. Because of our intelligence we are able to create abstract hypotheses to explain unknowns and fool ourselves into believing that they are correct. For example, if we are in an old, dark house, our imagination will create supernatual explainations for the normal settling that the house experiences. Thus the ghost stories told by various people. That's all religion is, our ancestors fears made manifest and anthropomorphized (though I do believe some ancestors realized that religion is also a good societal control and used it as such).
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  • Posted by IndianaGary 9 years, 9 months ago
    Well stated and well reasoned although I could have said it (and have) in fewer words.
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    Posted by LibertyBelle 9 years, 9 months ago
    "If faith is a means of divining truth, then what-
    ever anyone divines by meant of faith is by that
    fact true."...Oh, no. Only if you have faith in the
    RIGHT thing. Of course, how are you supposed to
    know what the right thing is to have faith in?--Oh, you just happen to have faith in the right
    thing. But how do you know? Oh, you just have
    faith.---I think some people claim that you can
    find out by reason what to have faith in; but
    what kind of sense does that make? If you ar-
    rive by reason at something to have faith in
    thereafter, then you can just abandon reason at
    that point? Etc., etc. Zenphamy was right about
    conservatives and their dilemma.--The solution
    is to promote Objectivism.
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  • Posted by Ranter 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Belief always has, and always will, play a prominent role in the life of all human beings. I believe that I exist. I believe that you exist, although all I can know is the idea of you in my mind. Etc. I believe "facts" because the idea of the facts in my mind is consistent with the idea of other facts. I don't "see" as such. I develop an idea that integrates the pixels of signal the visual nerves send from the eye to the brain. What my brain sees is that idea, not the light itself.
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  • Posted by Ranter 9 years, 9 months ago
    For Christians and for religious Jews, faith v. reason is not applicable, because both religions chose between the first and fifth centuries to base theology on reason, and to use reason to interpret the scriptures. Islam did not. Islam chose to accept as the literal Word of God every word in the Koran. There are contradictions in the Koran, and Islam believes both sides of each contradiction. There are contradictions in the Bible, but Jews and Christians use reason to interpret, and so accept the evolution of thought in the Bible, with the later thought supplanting what in earlier parts of the Bible is in contradiction with the later thought. Further, Christians and Jews both accept that parts of the Bible were meant to be taken literally when they were written, and other parts were meant to be taken allegorically when they were written. The Creation Myth is one of those that was originally meant to be taken allegorically, for example.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 9 years, 9 months ago
    I'm an ex-Catholic Christian (and a Constitutional right leaning Libertarian) who has a theory that the Islamic RELIGION is the invention of the devil.
    Such would be the "angel" that appeared to Mohammed.

    Well, what do you expect from someone who calls himself allosaur?. A complete conformist?
    I'm not even a complete Christian conformist. I believe in evolution. I walk alone.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Great phrase :...primacy of consciousness block"! Is that yours? I am stealing it, BTW.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Does religion have a strong set of roots in the psyche of Apes from whom we evolved some 6 million years ago? If not then there is a god or there are not "deep psychic roots of religion in humans. We and our ancestors are valuing beings and respond accordingly. We get to use words as thought to choose what we value so we can divest religion quite easily once we restore reason.
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  • Posted by philosophercat 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Religion is the instantiation of faith which is belief as the emotional confidence that something is true without evidence. Just the opposite of reason and logic applied to the real world.
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  • Posted by jconne 9 years, 9 months ago
    Faith vs reason as a means of knowing is indeed the essence. A "tamed" religion, like Judaism and Christianity in the west is less an immediate threat, but deadly when they ignorantly vote our rights away.

    The opening general session at OCON 2015 addresses this explicitly as does the third day's general session. They are all available online through the end of July via Live Streaming. Six 1.5 hr talks cost $130. Just register and pay. I think it's a great deal. Thursday's was John Allison, former CEO (for 20 years) of BB&T, talking on the theme of his brilliant new book, "The Leadership Crisis and The Free Market Cure". His language, his ideas are exceptionally clear and accessible. I recommend studying this to be better able to express our values and influence others. That's what I'm doing.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Including the secular versions? Islam is the second largest of the the nine monotheistic religions in the world. Some of them have one thing in common which is linear development. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Ba'hai. with offshoots of Zoraster, Krishna and Bhudda.

    All of them have two things in common which is the Golden Rule of Do unto others.

    Something none of them have in common with the secular versions.

    Another common factor is an inability to follow their own teachings. which includes the secular versions.

    In the end it'is the individual who makes the choice to do unto others and hence each version of the Ten Commandments not the church. Except for the secular versions who have no standards.
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  • Posted by jimjamesjames 9 years, 9 months ago
    It is not "religion" as such, it is "belief."

    A "belief" is not truth; if it were truth, it would be demonstrable. A "belief" is not fact; if it was fact, it would be demonstrable.

    AR said "Never use emotion as a tool of cognizance." Believers "choose" their belief because of the return on the investment. Whether Islam or Christianity or Buddhism, et al., the choice is personal. When it involves government, it is no longer personal, it is political.

    AR said "Never initiate force (or fraud)." When a "belief" excuses the initiation of force, whether it is called a "religion" or not, it is destructive of individuals and flies in the face of rational thought, flies in the face of being objective.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Interesting to look at Islam's religious ideology as having the same credibility as Christian religious ideology.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I doubt that religion will ever be relegated to the margins. Belief systems have a strong set of roots in the human psyche and it takes a strong person to understand that belief has no part in life and will always come into conflict with someone else's belief. Only when one accepts logic, reasoning, and evidence within reality will rationality overcome belief and faith.
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  • Posted by conscious1978 9 years, 9 months ago
    Stripped to its fundamentals, Islam is another facet on the 'religion rubik's cube'. No matter how it's twisted, it's still the same primacy of consciousness block.

    Great article, Ted.
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    Posted by $ MikeMarotta 9 years, 9 months ago
    Islam is a variant of Christianity, much as is the Church of Latterday Saints (Mormons). We accept Mormons. We also accept Unitarians who deny the Trinity. Islam is not much different than those insofar as it is an extension of Christianity. You can find a Quran online in English and search for "Jesus" (Iesu) and "Mary" (Mariyam). You will find Jesus mentioned something like 25 times, called the Messiah and called the Son of God. You will find Mary called the Virgin and the Mother of God.

    The sticking point is that God cannot die. When the men took Jesus down from the cross, he appeared dead… they thought he was dead… Well, absent the death of Christ, there is no Resurrection, and no Salvation. … but, again, we have Unitarians among us who deny the Trinity, and we seem not to care.

    If we declared war on Unitarians and Mormons, we could easily make them into terrorists.

    Religions are ideas. They can only be changed or defeated with better ideas. You can find Zeus-worshippers and Odin-worshippers, and of course, Wiccans. They do not hold much sway. Eventually, all religions will be relegated to the margins of sociality.
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