Yes, Conservatives, Islam Is a Religion
Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
I've noticed on the site lately, more and more comments by our more conservative and religious members speaking about the evil of Islam. I've wanted to reply to many of those commenters and posters about the topic of this article, and after reading this article, I'm glad I waited. I couldn't have said it any better. It's not Islam that's the problem--it's religion.
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 5.
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
Read the first line Athiesm Qualifies.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
A=A looks like atheism fits perfectly.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices:
Certifiably fits here as well.
4.the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.:
Nope does not qualify but then neither do nearly all religious poeple.
5. The practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
If your advocating there in no god you must have faith in that, as it cannot be proven any more than I can prove there is a god. Fits here as well.
6. Something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:
Certiantly based of this thread it fits here.
Atheism is a religion. Its a godless one but so is secularism, budism and many others that are godless.
You do not see it as irrational I do.
I do not want a society based on religion. I want a society free to practice the religion of there choice. I want government and state separated. I would agree that a state based on Christianity, Atheism and/or Muslim would be bad. I do not want one group of believes forced on anyone.
Again the problem is not religion, it is the way in which people use religion. There are crazy atheist that attempt to cram that down on people as well.
Enforcing any of these religions on a group of people is irrational. I have just as much right to reject the idea of "no god" as you do to reject the idea of god.
I am not attempting to convert anyone. I am stating that religion is a tool like any other idea or concept.
I do not think a philosophy of reason should be dismissed as "Deceit and fraud" but you provide a strawman that substitutes a religion in for a part of a philosophy, which is in and of itself deceit and fraud.
Capitalist societies have no problems co-existing with communes and religious orders, which are socialist societies, as long as it is the Capitalist society that owns the uber rules. Many such individual-choice socialist subsets have existed within the US for all of its existence. (The reverse is not true - Socialist societies do have trouble with Capitalist enclaves because they are destabilized by them.)
My reference to "ample philosophical education" was to indicate that I think that the pro-socialism choice is going to be innate in a large subset of the human population; that it was not a matter of their having been conditioned by our current educational system to believe in socialism. I think that there are genuinely that many people who lack any inclination to excel and who are sufficiently risk-adverse that they would be glad to trade their personal freedom for security.
Jan
What atheists want the rest of us to believe is that the universe, which operates with absolute mathematical precision, and man, the most complex mechanism in the universe, are the result of randomness. But, a pencil must have an inventor/creator.
Regarding love, yes most people have experienced love (but not all), but it's impossible to quantify or prove empirically. Brain activity when thinking about love/loved ones can be replicated by many other things, so it's a matter of belief and/faith. We can't prove love, but we know it exists.
Likewise, billions of people have experienced God without the ability to prove it. The lack of proof does not equal non-existence.
The trouble is that almost nobody gets "ample philosophical education" and only some the free choice. On top of that vast majorities think that someone else is responsible for "achieving" happiness for them.
Rand nor anyone else claims that biology or the cosmos happened by accident. The 'Big Bang' theory was the creation of a Catholic priest, and has to be continually 'adjusted' to match direct observations and measurements. Your continued reliance on the theory only demonstrates that scientist can also suffer from the influence of their belief systems, to the detriment of their work.
I can however point to a resident Atheist and self proclaimed "Objectivist" here in the Gulch who has repeatedly done this.
The scientific thinkers referenced above were devoutly religious (that's entirely different from "the church") and viewed science as a means of gaining greater understanding of their Creator for myriad reasons I've pointed out.
To assert that the Founding Fathers were not deeply religious is to have a profound lack of historical knowledge. More than half the signers of the Declaration of Independence were ministers and/or had degrees in theology themselves. There is no question whatsoever that western civilization (and America) were founded on Judeo-Christian principles. To deny this is to maintain a preternatural rejection of historical facts. Were the references to the Creator in the DOI and personal writings of the Founding Fathers typographical errors?
This forum is a for honest intellectual debate, which is what I'm attempting to have. I'm not evangelizing my religion. Rand was, without doubt, a great intellect, but she was not infallible.
You consistently avoid "the watch" question and "the building question", because it spotlights the fact that creation requires a Creator by Rand's own assertion. She admired the architect who designed something as simple as a building, while denying the most complex system in the universe must have a Creator.
One can believe in property rights, freedom, liberty, the pursuit of happiness and be either an atheist or a Christian. The difference is that it's Judeo-Christian principles that allow for both to exist. Look to where Judeo-Christian principles are not observed, and you will find less freedom, less liberty, and less property rights.
Their
I have not called atheists stupid, or lacking reason for their belief system, I only expect the same courtesy in return when others perhaps do have a faith in what atheists call mysticism. To each their own.
Atheists have the same issue proving their belief as anyone with any religion. That has always been my statement. Also I would challenge anyone here to look up any of my previous posts and tell me what religion am I? You would be very hard pressed to come up with a definitive answer.
Every Atheist has their reasoning based on their perceptions of reality and based on their interpretation of "evidence" just a most religious people I know who have their perception and their evidence that they reason on using their perception.
You can have 50 people all watching the same train wreck and get 50 entirely different view points and 50 entirely different reports and statements all describing the exact same identical thing, and the irony is they may all be 100% correct.
As to the existence of love, every human at one time or the other experiences the subjective experience of love and the effects of it on a human is directly observable and measurable--the physical and mental effects are well quantified and studied.
All? I do not fall into that BROAD BRUSH mentality of yours.
Life, existence, is far too wondrous, to me, to be limited to just my senses. If that doesn't work for everyone here thats fine by me and I won't knock anyone because of it. I've said from day 1 that I am a primarily Constitutional Conservative and, despite my admiration for Rand, that hasn't changed.
Load more comments...