Yes, Conservatives, Islam Is a Religion
Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
I've noticed on the site lately, more and more comments by our more conservative and religious members speaking about the evil of Islam. I've wanted to reply to many of those commenters and posters about the topic of this article, and after reading this article, I'm glad I waited. I couldn't have said it any better. It's not Islam that's the problem--it's religion.
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 6.
We continue to demonstrate the point of this post in these conversations of the relative rightness of Christian religion, rather than understanding that allowing belief and faith to guide or direct us through life and determine our actions and reactions to other human life because they don't believe the same thing we do is the problem.
Religion will not be relegated to the margins unless rational ideas are spread, understood and taken seriously. Such progress is not automatic.
No one knows conclusively how we are what we are or what happens to us, our consciousness, once we die. To say you conclusively know there is something or nothing after life is just bluster, your personal opinion - for you, Rand, or any Objectivist.
The only difference between you and me is I prefer to think Jesus was nailed to the cross and you choose to give that role to Rand.
Notice how I didn't take points for having a different viewpoint.
The early successes in the science of Copernicus, Galileo and Newton were in spite of religion, not because of it. They did not use religious faith as a substitute for validation through observation and reason. Einstein was not religious at all. No one said that an inability to understand or prove the existence of something negates its existence. You made that up. If you mean your faith in the supernatural, that is meaningless and arbitrary with no referents in reality to discuss and nothing to understand. It has nothing to do with science, evidence or proof. There is no reason to take fantasy seriously as at all. That is why it is properly rejected as anything to take cognitively seriously, let something to either believe or believe to be "possible".
Your militant repetition alleging a "dishonesty" in rejecting your religion as the foundation of this country while ignoring what had just been explained to you and has been discussed at length is non-responsive and rude. The founders of this country were not "profoundly religious" and religion was not what the Declaration of Independence was about. If Christian other worldly asceticism and duty to the supernatural had continued to dominate we would never have risen out of the Dark and Middle Ages, let alone achieved America. The country was founded despite the remnants of religion, not because of it.
Ayn Rand had no "fundamental flaw" in rejecting "Judeo-Christian morality" as the "keystone to the freedom and liberty of western civilization" or anything else. Christian morality is based on other worldly duty to sacrifice, which is the diametric opposite of the right to one's own life, liberty, property, and pursuit of one's own happiness on earth. Rational egoism is a central and fundamental aspect of her philosophy. See her book The Virtue of Selfishness and, again, Leonard Peikoff's The Ominous Parallels for explanation to get started, assuming you are interested in learning.
The reasons for rejecting your religious proselytizing here have been given many times. It directly and fundamentally opposes Ayn Rand's philosophy of reason, which is the purpose of this forum, and the nuisance distraction does not belong here. Reason and faith are opposites and incompatible. If you think that is nothing other than "scoffing" then it is your problem in not following the discussion or taking an interest in the purpose of the forum. This is not a place to evangelize for religion.
I speculate that this is why many of them so vociferously maintain, mistakenly, the atheism is just another religion. It makes it just so much easier to hate atheists. Why, they are only barely distinguishable from, say, Jews or Muslims.
I have never heard an atheist voice hatred for religious people because of their religiousness. Maybe I did not live long enough. I am only about 80 years old. The hatred I see everywhere is against murderous behavior in the name of religion. Most recently in the name of Islam.
I'm not sure where you observed me saying science knows all. I said exactly the opposite.
And, you seemed to have missed my point entirely with the watch. According to you/Rand, we're expected to believe that something as basic as a pencil requires a creator (never mind a watch), but the most complex set of systems in the universe happened by accident as result of an explosion.
Ironically, this position also flies in the face of Rand's ideology. She holds as the highest expression the creation of a skyscraper or new technology or ..., yet denies that we had a Creator. By that logic, the Empire State Building would have spontaneously happened given enough time, as the raw materials were just waiting for the right set of random circumstances.
See, the logic falls apart. Interestingly, Christianity allows for and explains how we came to be here and our endowed rights (natural rights) enable freedom, liberty, and the right to create, while Rand's ideology actually contradicts itself in this regard by not explaining how we came to be.
Comprehension I think is the problem here. Not mine but yours....where has your reason gone?
"The divide comes from a philosophical issue, as to who the REAL successor should be. Fundamentally the issue was, Either a direct descendant or an elected leader."
http://www.npr.org/sections/parallels...
"Most of the Prophet Muhammad's followers wanted the community of Muslims to determine who would succeed him. A smaller group thought that someone from his family should take up his mantle. They favored Ali, who was married to Muhammad's daughter, Fatimah."
There is no such things as "creation" out of non-existence and change in the form of existence does not require a conscious intent by some being, supernatural or otherwise. It has nothing to do with imagined watches manufactured by blowing something up. Specific means are required in the formation of anything. It is not random.
Your meandering off on demanding a proof of "love" is irrelevant. Everyone has experienced love and knows that it exists from direct observation. That is not faith in the supernatural. You have tried that line before. It didn't work then and it doesn't now.
By your logic, Bin Laden and Washington were both freedom fighters... not quite.
Proving a negative is impossible and unnecessary, but if if a claim is self contradictory you can say it is impossible..
It is not "irrational" to reject religion as just another "tool" with no consequences. Religion has supernatural content and method based on faith. That is destructive thinking. A civilized society in which the rights of the individual are protected cannot be based on religion and cannot be defended with religious beliefs. The a-philosophical libertarian subjectivism ignoring the consequences of philosophical ideas people hold is profoundly anti-intellectual.
Concept of faith is much broader than its application in the religious context. From Wiktionary:
faith (countable and uncountable, plural faiths)
1.The reasoning of beliefs hoped true by the proof of things, such as philosophy, that are without the real evidence of sight, sound, and touch. Have faith that the criminal justice system will avenge the murder. I have faith that my prayers will be answered. I have faith in the healing power of crystals.
2.A religious belief system. The Christian faith.
3.An obligation of loyalty or fidelity and the observance of such an obligation. He acted in good faith to restore broken diplomatic ties after defeating the incumbent.
4.A trust or confidence in the intentions or abilities of a person, object, or ideal. I have faith in the goodness of my fellow man.
I think that it is fair to say that people here object to religious faith propaganda. I do not think that they are bothered at all by the concept of trust implied in some uses of the word faith.
I urge you to be more careful while writing here. You will instigate less bother and perhaps achieve a discussion based on careful and unambiguous reasoning. But forget about promoting religious faith here. If you are religious, you do not belong in the Gulch.
P.S. I was unable to edit out the three blue characters.
The Bible is the most translated and most widely published book in history.
The Earth is 92,960,000 miles from the Sun
Christians believe in a single God
Some Christians believe in a Tri-Une God, i.e. Trinity, Three Gods in one.
Egyptians believed in many gods.
Jainism believes in harming no living thing hence they do not eat Dairy products or meat products.
Now. Stating facts is not proselytizing any more than stating the distance of the earth to the sun.
Your religion of Atheism is no different and your violent outbursts making unfounded accusations is actually NOT something that a true Objectivist does.
I did not state a belief in one religion over another. I did not encourage you or anyone else ever to convert from your religion of Atheism.
Quite the contrary YOU are the one doing all the proselytizing trying to convert people by using all tactics liberal. You are name calling, insinuating stupidity, you have been most rude and ignorant to others you attempt to use emotion in your claims of reason. You demand others be removed form this site for not agreeing with you, and your not even a person flagged as a producer.
A=A If something is true it is true else false.
You again mis-quote, I did not say True Religions, I said True Christianity just as I have said in other posts True Muslim.
If you CLAIM a belief and fail to follow the tenets of that belief you are not TRUE.
You claim to be all things Objectivist yet you are not a "Producer" on this site. Since you are not a producer, then are you an Objectivist or a Moocher? You have three choices. Looter, Moocher or Producer and being your not flagged Producer there are only two other choices.
A=A
I also find your vitriol on religion interesting. I am not sure you can hate the thought of a God with so much vigor when you claim there is none.
How can you hate something that does not exist?
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