Yes, Conservatives, Islam Is a Religion
Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
I've noticed on the site lately, more and more comments by our more conservative and religious members speaking about the evil of Islam. I've wanted to reply to many of those commenters and posters about the topic of this article, and after reading this article, I'm glad I waited. I couldn't have said it any better. It's not Islam that's the problem--it's religion.
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
"If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must accurately identify Islam for what it is. It’s a religion.
Why does it matter whether we call this religion a religion? It matters (among other reasons) because recognizing Islam as a religion is the first step in dealing with the problem of jihad—a problem that is much broader than the tenets of Islam calling for the submission or murder of infidels. As I show in “Islamic Jihad and Western Faith,” the fundamental problem is not the specific tenets of Islam, but the idea that faith is a means of knowledge.
'If people can know by means of faith that God exists, what He wills to be true, that His will is the moral law, and what He commands people to do, then they can know literally anything to be true. If a person’s “spiritual sense” tells him that God says he should love his neighbor, then he knows he should love his neighbor. If it tells him that God says he should love his enemies, then he knows he should love them. If it tells him that God says he should turn the other cheek if someone strikes him, then he knows what to do when that happens. If it tells him that God says to kill his son, then he knows he must do so. If it later tells him that God says not to kill his son, then he knows he should not. If it tells him that God says he should convert or kill unbelievers, then he knows he should convert or kill unbelievers. If it tells him that God says the Koran is the word of God and that if he fails to believe and obey every word of it he will burn in hell, then he knows that to be true. . . .
Either faith is a means of knowledge, or it is not. If it is a means of knowledge, then it is a means of knowledge. If faith is a means of divining truth, then whatever anyone divines by means of faith is by that fact true. If faith is a means of knowledge, then the tenets of Islam—which are “known” by means of faith—are true, in which case Muslims should convert or kill infidels. By what standard can an advocate of faith say otherwise? . . .
To lend credence to the notion that faith is a means of knowledge is to support and encourage Islamic regimes and jihadist groups at the most fundamental level possible: the epistemological level. It is to say to them, in effect: “Whatever our disagreements, your method of arriving at truth and knowledge is correct.” Well, if their method is correct, how can the content they “know” by means of it be incorrect?'
If Westerners want to win the cultural war against Islam, we must be willing to recognize—and to openly acknowledge—the fundamental and relevant truths of the matter. Those truths include the fact that Islam is a religion, and the fact that faith is not a means of knowledge.
Conservatives are uncomfortable with these facts because they are religious themselves, and they want religion and faith to be good things. But discomfort with facts doesn’t alter them. And wanting things to be good doesn’t make them so.
The solution to discomfort arising from the fact that Islam is a religion is not to pretend that Islam is not a religion, but to recognize and accept the fact that religion as such is inherently irrational and potentially murderous because it posits a non-rational means of knowledge."
Let's see what others think of this approach to solving the problems of conflicts with ISLAM.
Is Islam any more wrong in that origin of knowledge, than Christianity or Judaism or any other source of supernatural knowledge?
Previous comments... You are currently on page 8.
THēˈäkrəsē/
noun
noun: theocracy; plural noun: theocracies
a system of government in which priests rule in the name of God or a god.
religion
noun re·li·gion \ri-ˈli-jən\
: the belief in a god or in a group of gods
: an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods.
"Religion is part of Theocracy,"
"Theocracy is not part of religion."
Islam has the "Priests i.e. Mullahs who rule and govern in place of their God and Prophet."
I am not sure you really know what the issue is between Sunni and Shi'ia. But just to help educate you a bit on that history you are in part correct.
The divide comes from a philosophical issue, as to who the REAL successor should be. Fundamentally the issue was, Either a direct descendant or an elected leader.
At its real core.
Shiites are for the direct descendant.
Sunni for an elected leader. Sunni's make up 85 - 90% if the Muslims, Shiia the remaining.
Shia tend to be the more radical of the two, however they both believe in the tenets of the Quran which at its core is, "Kill the infidels."
Theocratic enforcement and conquer are practiced by the obsessively faithful who take their faith in religious duty seriously. Islamic conquer in the 7th century and beyond was not alone in the region and the religiously inspired conquests didn't start with Islam. The Roman Empire had had quite a run of it by then and they continued at each others' throats. Islam has had its own internal bloody feuds between the Sunni and the Shi'i over a family power struggle for who should follow Mohammed as the leader.
Abandon reason for faith and there is no way to establish truth for the arbitrary fantasies of faith and no way to settle disputes between competing fantasies other than force. That some American neo-Christians claim faith in political freedom is no different than the method of any other faith and is no defense for a civilized society of reason and individualism. Christianity, the primitive philosophy of the Dark Ages, was not and could not have been the basis for the founding of America, which rose out of the Enlightenment emphasis on reason and individualism breaking the intellectual death grip of the church over western thought.
I think I will read this book. Sounds very inciteful.
As far as I'm concerned, we can never know all that's possible to know, but our purpose is to continue to learn and understand a little more of the reality we live in.
Applying reason and logic to the problem of Islam might well lead us to different conclusions than if we only react in defense of our individual or group beliefs rather than to demonstrable facts. I'm not a pacifist and I'm not asking for peace nor am I asking for a Holy war against Islam (that's been tried a couple of times before and it's what Islam itself wants).
Get the rhetoric, the political speak, the religious speak, the propaganda speak, the I'm better than you speak out of our internal conversation with ourselves and the public and look for real solutions. What we've been doing since the Russians pulled out of Afghanistan sure as Hell hasn't done anything but make everything worse including our own individual lives in our reactive surveillance-give up our rights state.
Well said. I appreciate it.
"At a fundamental level, in their reflection of first principles, beliefs found in atheism, Islam, cosmology, or Christianity are in no essential aspect different from one another. They differ only in the way they express details; at their roots, they are astonishingly similar. And that, my friends, is what makes my mission so difficult to achieve. Believers in any of the four faiths cited above, if they are reasonable, rational people, will readily accept this basic commonality to be true. However, they invariably preface their reasonableness with the caveat that the particular group they belong to personally is the single exception.
Atheists are quick to imply that they have no belief, but they're wrong. They believe that there is no God, although their assertion can never be proven true. Muslims spawn a high proportion of radical extremists within their ranks, based upon the premise that their's is the one true faith, but in the opinion of theis writer, they are just as misguided as the atheists. Somehow, sooner than later, we must come to the realization that our own belief is not the exception to the rule, thereby stripping the implied sense of divinity from what is in reality no more than our fragile point of view, fiercely held."
This article and yourself give examples of the effects of religion in reality. I would say it has a very strong effect in reality and is therefor very real as the tool that it is. To attempt to view it as something else is denying the power of the mind.
From my point of view the religion of atheism is based on deceit and fraud. You would say that about my flavor of Christianity. I have no problem with that it is what you have faith in, and you are entitled to it. You can no more prove god does not exist than I can prove that he does.
I do not have to prove that god does exist, unless I am attempt to convert you, You only need to prove that he does not if you are attempting to convert me.
Lets not try to convert each other but rather respect that fact that neither of us wishes to use force on others and we wish to earn what we get by the sweat of our own brow and not allow another man to live for our life.
Attacking Religion is quite honestly nothing but destructive in the same way that attacking a gun is nothing but destructive. Its not the gun that needs to be attacked. Its the person that decides to use that gun to manipulate and control or kill others that needs to be attacked. The same is true of the religious zealots regardless of if they are Muslim, Atheist or Christian. Those that would initiate the use that tool to attack, kill or control by force others are in the wrong, not the tool.
The trend seems to be to scoff at Christianity in favor of Rand's ideology. I find it remarkable that the gulch doesn't realize that Judeo-Christian principles are essential to freedom/liberty. It's divinely ironic that Rand, after escaping communist Russia failed to grasp this.
Further, the argument that reason/science precludes faith and because we can't prove the existence of God or his work proves his non-existence. Can someone with this position, please prove that love exists?
Just because one can physically touch, or scinetificly prove, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It's the cynosure of arrogance to assume that we know all that's possible to know or understand.
As is a cop that stands by and watches his fellow cops abuse, rob, or murder others even though he himself doesn't do those things.
Or the husband of Mrs. X is a pedophile and abuses your and his children.
Pedophilia and child abuse is evil
Mr. and Mrs. X are evil.
True, a gun is a tool, but it's purpose is to wound or kill. That's all it can be used for or the threat of it's use. A gun is a fact in reality.
And Psychology is a tool whose only purpose is to control and/or influence the mind and thought of an otherwise healthy brain. Psychology can be demonstrated in reality.
Religion is a set of beliefs based on faith that rely upon deceit and fraud and story telling to gain control of masses of people by convincing them that their source of knowledge is to believe, There is no reality, just what the story teller puts in, either good things or bad things.
The Middle East: A Brief History of the Last 2000 Years - Bernard Lewis
Cultures in Conflict: Christians, Muslims, and Jews in the Age of Discovery - Bernard Lewis
The Koran Interpreted - A.J. Arberry
Between Islam and Christendom: Travelers, Facts, and Legends in the Middle Ages and Renaissance -- Beckingham
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades - Robert Spencer
I fact checked the Politically Incorrect Guide, which I read last, and it was consistent. Of all the books, the politically incorrect guide was the least dry.
If I come across the others I will follow up.
I've read many more books related to islam since. To get a contemporary sense of islam today I recommend Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Also, no, I do not play any musical instrument. My son player electric and classical guitar semi-professionally.
Hurrah! Allosaur is now the triangle!
Jan
Catholic, Protestant, Mormonism are RELIGIONS.
This is NOT proselytizing.
Christianity is a belief in the message taught in the Bible and b y Christ.
Jews were COMMANDED to obey the Roman Government's laws, pay taxes, and observe the laws, and only refuse when they conflicted with God's Laws.
God's Laws were in essence "Do No Harm."
Christians are COMMANDED to obey the Superior Authority (Romans). Except where they conflict with God's commands, which is in this order:
1) Love God
2) Love your neighbor as yourself.
Aside from that Christians are obligated to obey the secular authority, meaning there is a vast difference between "True Christianity" and Secular Religion and Islam.
All christians are altruists
Altruism is evil
All Christians are evil
Religion is not the problem. Religion is a tool.
It is always interesting to me that so many people have the ability to be rational about one tool. Most everyone here is with a gun. Yet totally and completely irrational about another tool religion.
It is the mind and only the mind that can choose to use a tool for good or evil. The article has it wrong.
Science is also a tool. Today its being used in our schools to condition children that the country is their god. Does that make Psychology evil? It does not take much imagination to go on and on about the why in which people use science to hold down others and maintain power by the means of push and pull. Does that make science evil.
Yes people have chosen to use religion as a weapon it does not mean we should do away with god centered religion to replace it with a different religion that has no god and worships something else instead. No more than it means we should abandon psychology because governments are using it to brain wash people into submission without even known they are submitting.
The dark age was so because the minds of men decided to use the social and technological tools of the time to hold people down in order to maintain power. That can be done by men of religion or men of science. The fact is in most of the free world, its science that is enslaving this time, and its a better tool for the job.
If you wish to find the root of the evil you see in religion you must look no father than the mind. It it the only thing capable of such evil, and the only thing capable of the good that can counter it.
Load more comments...