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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Would that include, say, illegal aliens? Mafia?"
    We can't help people do something illegal, but we're not legally required to police for illegal activites. The state bar has strict standards about this. It's come up a few times. We did not turn anyone away, but we made it clear we couldn't help with any illegal activities.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Nonsense. prejudice = judging before experiencing. Until you bite into an apple, you haven't tested whether it's worth buying or not.
    You have to judge by its appearance, and if present, its sell-by date. That's pre-judging.

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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    He probably figured the harm done or discouragement done to other patrons was greater than the financial opportunity they represented.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What about businesses that won't sell to minors? Like... liquor stores?
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Sounds to me an opportunity for someone to open a competing business that *wouldn't* discriminate against whatever minority seems to be under-served.
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  • Posted by iroseland 11 years, 2 months ago
    So, I have a few thoughts on this. First we expect business owners to act in their own rational self interest. As such, if the money is good ill bake the cake. At the same time, if someone chooses for fill in the blank reasons that they do not want to serve a group of people. Fine, I only go places I am wanted. If I am not wanted I go where I am. Since these cases seem to be coming up involving creative businesses it would seem for instance that you would want your wedding cake made by someone who will be just as invested in making a great cake as you are in having a great wedding. Using force to get a business to make you a cake might get the cake made but you cannot expect it to be their best work. Also this kind of thinking has consequences. There was a gun shop in Milwaukee that made the news as the place to straw buy. I was a pretty regular customer there. When they were put into a position where they were worried about a straw purchase the "customer" would bust out the race card and talk about getting a lawyer. Since the local police didn't really care you can guess how things went.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My wife and I recently went over our books together. I cannot imagine saying, "we're going to stop working with [insert minority here]." If we have too many clients, we either hire people or raise prices. It makes no sense to turn away paying customers.
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  • Posted by $ rockymountainpirate 11 years, 2 months ago
    In the 1970's in Norfolk, VA there were signs in store windows that read "No Dogs or Sailors Allowed." That was the business owners choice. While dogs rarely spend much money, sailors have been known to alot. Again, a business decision by the business owner about his business and property rights.

    No Shoes, No Shirt, No Service.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 11 years, 2 months ago
    I heard this on local radio and thought it could be of interest to this discussion topic. One of the 3 members of the Arizona senate spoke on another way that this bill could be used, She said, "This bill can be used to protect the right of a gay print shop owner who is approached by a Baptist church to make sermon bulletins which condemn homosexuality as a sin."

    I believe this statement really shows the intent oft he bill and really highlight the PC hype and fear mongering by certain groups seeking to exert their will over the individual.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't know, and there are too many postings to go through and find it. Heck, it might have merely been me that said to look up the definitions for prejudice, which includes bigotry.
    These terms have been loaded with unnecessary connotations of evil. While they are most often used in connection to people, that is not their only usage. Just saying that discrimination, per se, is not a problem.
    And in particular, people discriminate all the time. While some might call it choice, it is choice based on some criteria - either acknowledged or not.
    We are on a slippery slope that is removing our ability to make those choices - to eliminate discrimination. Choice is fundamental to liberty and freedom, restricting that or eliminating it altogether eliminates our freedom. I resist that at every opportunity.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 2 months ago
    Odd how this has been twisted from a bill that protects a businessman into a bill that will be used to decide who his customers are. Were a bill be passed that requires all LBGT business owners to sell to straight customers, would it get as much play from PMSNBC?
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  • Posted by rlewellen 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Lawsuits can be expensive. There are false charges of discrimination too. I am not always walking around thinking about the color of people's skin or is that a gay person, when I am forming sentences because I am not in those categories which brings up a different issue. There is a hypersensitivity but not in the case of the florist.
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm aware of the fact that procreation is only possible between members of the opposite sex (though they need not necessarily have opposite chromosomes), but I don't see how that has anything to do with this particular law.

    What exactly are you trying to say?
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  • Posted by $ 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I've seen reports about business owners who engage in discrimination before, and it doesn't ever cause them to go out of business, since the only people who ever seem to give a crap are the ones who happen to be members of the group that's being discrimated against. No one else ever cares. And since it's usually only minorities that ever really face genuine discrimination (at least in the U.S. - South Africa is a different story), they typically don't constitute a large enough percentage of the business owner's revenue to have any significant impact on him financially. The argument that discrimination automatically leads to bankruptcy is an unfounded claim with no evidence to support it, and a lot to refute it. So of course those who are victims of discrimination are going to try and combat it using other methods, as boycotts alone have been proven to be ineffective.
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  • Posted by preimert1 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    OK, Robbie, after rechecking the definition of prejudice in Webster's, it appears to be nuanced towards the negative. But I can see that after numerous encounters with fruit, one could form a prejudice (an expected value) for or against which one to pick based on past successes or failures.

    But what's bigotry got to do with it? How did that word creep in to this thread? Not from me.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I say that a business owner has the right to refuse the business of anyone - for any reason that they choose. Not merely on religious grounds.
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  • Posted by Robbie53024 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Please review the definitions for prejudice and bigotry.

    Judgment merely identifies choice. I am identifying more than choice, but actual discrimination. And saying that there is nothing wrong in so doing. You seem to want to shrink from the terms. I see no problem with them.
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  • Posted by preimert1 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Correction, Robbie. We apply judgement all the time--not the same as prejudice. Judgement is to Objectivism as prejudice is to Subjectivism.
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  • Posted by rlewellen 11 years, 2 months ago
    That was politics not religion. I had to take on a few people about that very report. Shame on them, for trying to pass such a law, then they threw property rights at me. I had to remind them of the people that were refused service at cafe's in the 50's. If you sell lollipops you sell them to everyone at the same price when there is no added cost.. If you are a private organization like a club you get to choose your members but, you have to put your rules out there and outsiders can't dictate those rules. If you sell your property you can't choose based on race etc. If any person prevents you from conducting your business, you can have them removed or ask them to leave. If you are forced to purchase an item and that action goes against your religious beliefs there should be separate riders to that product that allows all of your employees to purchase any rider they choose.You would have to have an option to give all your employees money in their checks to let them choose the rider they want to purchase. It didn't need to be that complicated, They claim they were trying to prevent people from suing a business for religious objection.I don't appreciate it one bit. Tell the government to get out of the way they had no business there in the first place.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Apart from it took two - and they were not the same - to give you life, biology has nothing to do with it.

    .but I could be wrong about you.
    .
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 2 months ago in reply to this comment.
    except according to some, a business owner MUST be compelled to sell his goods to anybody, including to those who he has a religious difference with. The businessmans moral rights are trumped by a potential clients lifestyle.

    I agree it's wrong, it flys in the face of every tenant of objectivism, it places their need above the businessmans desire to sell his products to the clients of his choice.

    The difference? It's about embracing political correctness for need over business, or over the owners strongly held religious beliefs.

    What would Hank Reardon do.
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