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Ayn Rand versus conservatives

Posted by Zenphamy 9 years, 5 months ago to Philosophy
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Since so much of Galt's Gulch Online content has become conservative headline aggregation posting and commentary over the last several months, let's discuss what Ayn Rand thought of conservatives and conservativism. She put forth quite a bit of commentary on the subject, particularly after Atlas Shrugged came out.

To put it bluntly, she considered conservatives as big a danger to this country as she did liberals/progressives, considering both leading the country down a path towards statism, socialism, anti-capitalism, and most importantly-anti-freedom. Following is just one quote, there are a number:

“Conservatives”

Objectivists are not “conservatives.” We are radicals for capitalism; we are fighting for that philosophical base which capitalism did not have and without which it was doomed to perish . . .

Politics is based on three other philosophical disciplines: metaphysics, epistemology and ethics—on a theory of man’s nature and of man’s relationship to existence. It is only on such a base that one can formulate a consistent political theory and achieve it in practice. When, however, men attempt to rush into politics without such a base, the result is that embarrassing conglomeration of impotence, futility, inconsistency and superficiality which is loosely designated today as “conservatism.” . . .

Today’s culture is dominated by the philosophy of mysticism (irrationalism)—altruism—collectivism, the base from which only statism can be derived; the statists (of any brand: communist, fascist or welfare) are merely cashing in on it—while the “conservatives” are scurrying to ride on the enemy’s premises and, somehow, to achieve political freedom by stealth. It can’t be done.

The Objectivist Newsletter

“Choose Your Issues,”
The Objectivist Newsletter, Jan, 1962, 1

So What Do You Think Conservatives


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  • -2
    Posted by james464 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I continue to not get responses to these questions. Is this forum only good for Objectivist toadies?
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  • Posted by james464 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So you have reasoned to this? Could someone else reason I have value?

    Hiding me doesn't change the validity of my questions.

    I am not sure why I cannot get a straight answer to fundamental questions and it seems to expose the lack of substance of Objectivism.
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  • -1
    Posted by james464 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    With all due respect and sincerity, I question the ability for you (or any Objectivist) to live consistent with your philosophy when you make statements like this. It sounds like you are at the end of your ability to discuss the matter.
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    Posted by james464 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ok, so you would give me that a person, who is an Objectivist, could value murder as "right." Correct?

    I have asked this multiple times in this forum and for some reason, no one will answer me directly.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm trying to be polite, but that's BS. I used my logic and came to a different conclusion. I pointed out the real causes of the situation you mention, and yet you want to brush them off because they are inconvenient and don't fit with your narrative.

    If you want to use that excuse to hide me, that's your own rationalization speaking - not logic. The other option is simply to say you disagree and leave it at that.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In logical terms, all definitions must be positive definitions of what something is, not what something is not (a negative definition). If you have an alternative definition or comprehension of the ideas I have set forth, please present it. If not, I can only assume that lacking alternatives my premises are correct. Thus the arguments speak for themselves.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Right and wrong are not absolutes, handed down by some deity or other external source. They are derived from a system of ethics which in turn is derived from one or more sets of values.

    If a person values his or her own life and well-being, and those of others, that person (using reason) will derive one system of ethics that separates “right” from “wrong”. If instead a person’s highest value is obedience to the dictates of some deity or earthly ruler or “society”, that person will derive a different system of ethics and a different conception of “right” and “wrong”.

    A person’s values are shaped by a complex mixture of genetics (nature), upbringing (nurture) and most of all, the amount of thinking that person chooses to do regarding the nature of the world and his or her place in it. The values that each person adopts lead (through the use of reason) to the system of ethics that he or she adopts.

    A culture that encourages its members to value life is more “fit” and able to survive and flourish than one that does not.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    the term is badly mixed up. first off scratch any RINO or Republican supporter they are also RINO...Rand and Cruz just proved that coming out for the Pelosi VAT Tax. Second many others are iffy at best and Libertarians are all over the map don't know which is who or what some of them are saying they are not conservative. Since Bush the first anyone connected with RNC are not conservative anymore.... the term is so overworked and under defined properly it's essentially meaningless except as a slur from the progressives and even then it's not accurate.

    It's a case by case evaluation....where as liberals are openly now socialists but conservative i wouldn't even use the term it's meaningless...
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  • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It's time to hide you as well. You obviously refuse to use your mind in a rational, logically, reasoning manner.
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  • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But your answers and explanations are nonsense. I'm not going to waste my time and mental energy trying to explain anymore to you. You're an adult human, supposedly with a mind. Use it.
    If you're unable to use reason in a logically rational way, you have nothing of value to offer to an Objectivist,
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  • Posted by 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Nonsense. You're trying to justify faith and belief vs. empirical evidence based knowledge. You're attempting to conflate and combine two incompatible concepts. I can tell you or anyone else that the value of gravity tomorrow will be the same tomorrow or next year as it is today, faith is a crapshoot.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How slow do you want it it's been since 1913 or 105 years so far.....still trucking withthe wheel locked to the left.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The definitions would remain the same but those who use the term are Conservative In Name Only having defected to the left along with Bush the first.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    that's ok a conservative or the bulk that claim that aren't conservative anymore. That went out the window with Bush one they are CINOs
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Meanwhile I've ordered up some references too support the statement i have just made. i anticipate no problem except for those stuck in the mud with their steering at hard left or hard right going in circles. those i can dispense with as not worth the effort.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years, 5 months ago
    Much of the conversation has centered around one issue. What is conservative? We have offered actual definitions, opinions and conjecture but one fact has escaped notice and airing. Conservatives and conservatism underwent a marked change - to the left - during the Presidency of Bush one.

    My own evaluation was based on comments of friends from other countries and others unknown met along the way. "What happened to your country? It is such a fascist police state now?" Another: "no matter our differences we always considered America to be the hope of the world a shining light of freedom. What happened?"

    I shrugged and could only agree. "I can't deny that. I've noticed it myself."

    So.. with that introduction in the 1980's after a stint in the military I worked as a police officer fo for the old Panama Canal Zone. We worked for the Pan Canal Government branch not the company branch and provided local police services though we were federal and one of four at that time. One of three I think that had nation wide police powers. After the canal treaty there remained three. Washington DC, White House, and Bureau of Indian Affairs. The rest were territorial such as PR, Guam, Samoa. Soon after the Department of Defense Police was added and over the years almost every agency and department ended up with it's own federal police including all the law enforcement agencies.

    A good many of them and the major portion were instituted during the first Bush Presidency. So much for smaller government and a kinder gentler thousand points of light. No matter he may have temporarily called off the IRS Dogs of War but it only went so far.

    In the end the amount is now what 30 plus certainly not more than 40. End conclusion a police state in the making.

    At that time the Representatives carried out a political revolution the Contract With America. Most of it was passed most of it was rescinded or quashed and not just by the increasingly socialist fascist left the still separate Democrat liberals.

    Much of it was - and in answer I'm sure to the provisions of the contract which threatened them directly - carried out by the so called conservative Republicans the well entrenched and of course the rest is history.

    The Republicans drifted ever leftward and now are part and parcel of the left mostly Republicans in Name only and a few still claiming to be conservative but....

    Their claims and their actions do not coincide.

    and have not through 27 years from Bush One to Obama The Last and that is a hopeful statement as the two parties have become one and far far from any conservative principles being discussed here.

    That I submit is part of the problem.. You are discussing something that no longer exists.

    However the fix is easy. Quit callijng the remnants conservatives decide if there is any group commonality and use names such as Libertarian, Constitutionalists or none of the above for the 30 plus percent of citizens no longer represented.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Reason does not compel one to action, however. Reason simply states something is (or was) and this is how I know through observation. But future events simply aren't covered by reason - they are speculative in nature. Speculation involves prediction. The proposed accuracy of that prediction may be arrived at by examining past events logically, but all that does is tell us the likelihood of any particular outcome to a choice - it doesn't make the choice. Faith is the leap of action that says "I'm going to choose to follow path X because I want the outcome it predicts."

    Example: I can reason that because of my experience with my car, if I push down on the gas pedal (and verify that the transmission is set to "Drive") that the engine will engage, fuel will undergo combustion, the explosive force of that combustion will result in the movement of pistons, which connected to my drive shaft will result in my car moving forward. By my logical calculations regarding past behavior, I anticipate this activity. But none of the logic actually pushes down the pedal. I act in faith expecting the outcome logically derived to be a future event to become the reality of the now.

    Faith becomes an even more pronounced feature of action when dealing with autonomic/sentient actors. We can anticipate to some degree how they will act, but the reality is often frustrating because both parties more than likely are operating on different information and some is likely to be fallacious (I won't go into the often illogical acts).

    I think one of the things that many people get confused about faith is that they relegate faith only to the realm of actions relating to outcomes which may or may not come following death. Because they envision no method with which to verify any conclusions (and reject existing ones), they are discounted as potentially valid motives. As a result they conclude that faith itself is flawed, rather than there simply being a shortfall in imagining a test of validation.

    Again, to me, logic is a method of extrapolating from the past what we can expect to happen in the future. Faith is the impetus propelling us to act on that logical derivation. If the action does not result in the desired outcomes, it does not indicate a lack of faith, it indicates a flaw in either our premises or logical derivation.
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  • Posted by james464 9 years, 5 months ago in reply to this comment.
    But by Objectivist assessments, the Golden Rule is arrived at subjectively through some type of culturally significant reasoning. Additionally, if you get a person that likes cutting themselves (an aberration and an irrational person within Objectivism I am sure), then they should cut someone else, according to the Golden Rule. If you say that is irrational, isn't it ok as long as the person cutting themselves uses valid reasoning to achieve their decision?
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