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Altruism or personal responsibility

Posted by richrobinson 9 years ago to The Gulch: General
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My grandparents passed away many years ago. I was thinking of them the other day and I was wondering how things would have turned out if they were Objectivists. Long before I was born my grandmother had what the doctors called a nervous breakdown. The family didn't talk about this much but from what I was told she was unable to make her own medical decisions. It was recommended to my grandfather that the accepted treatment be used---electric shock therapy. I'm guessing the doctors deemed it a success. She no longer had wide up and down mood swings but she was a shell of her former self. According to my mom she was fun loving and out going before. After the treatment she became extremely withdrawn and had difficulty walking(not sure if it was from the treatment). My grandfather stayed with her until his death taking care of her every need. It was quite a burden on him and I feel he stayed out the guilt he felt for allowing the shock treatments to be done. Would an Objectivist say he should have left and led a more full filling life? Wasn't he being personally responsible for his actions? They seemed happy in their own way but I still wonder if he did the right thing.

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  • Posted by blackswan 9 years ago
    He made the best decision he knew. Why should he feel guilty about that? He was committed to his wife, even though the decision didn't turn out well. Why should he then feel guilt or think he should leave her, when every intention was to help his wife? He loved her before the treatment, and he loved her after the treatment, in spite of the outcome. Guilt had nothing to do with it. He was a man of his word - 'til death.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 9 years ago
    Simple answer: if he loved his wife, then he was not sacrificing himself to take care of her; therefore he did the right thing. The decision should not have anything to do with the fact he had a marriage contract (as per Temlakos).
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  • Posted by Stormi 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Kids today are told they are the best, and they are entitled to a lot for doing nothing. My dad did not believe that way. When mom died, I had a Latin final the day of the viewing. I went and took the exam, then went to the funeral home. The teacher called me that night, having learned of the death, and said I should have asked to do it later. I told her my dad raised me to meet my obligations regardless. That same Latin teacher, after four years of Latin. was how I learned to become very interested in philosophy, and later in Rand's work. Kids need more study of philosophy, esp. AS, today, and fewer excuses. They are "educated" to be weak and whine when they do not get all they were promised by teachers. They deserve to be strong, less need for handouts and drugs to escape.
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  • Posted by $ Radio_Randy 9 years ago
    Keeping in mind that this is what I think I would do...having not, yet, been placed in such a situation:

    I believe that I would stay with my wife, if only because I believe that she would do the same for me, if the tables were turned. There is nothing altruistic about "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours".
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  • Posted by term2 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    definitely difficult. Just to know when they shouldnt drive is difficult enough. Dementia is a very BAD thing in that it robs one of a lot of independence.
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  • Posted by roneida 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Technocracy... I do not think that altruism enters into a relationship with someone you love. defending, pleasing , helping etc. someone you love is an act of selfishness because it pleases you to be with them and to serve them. You could not stand to not help because it would go against your best interests and love. Altruism is when you"sacrifice" for the betterment of a stranger or even an enemy which brings you no pleasure .
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  • Posted by richrobinson 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    It's hard to know exactly when you need outside help. My dad went thru that with his mom when she was in the early stages of dementia.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 9 years ago
    I would question the initial decision. Beyond that, he had a basic agreement with her--a covenant. Marriage is a contract. I'm sure we all want to honor our contracts--at least those we freely enter into.

    That said, I know from my own medical training that electroconvulsive therapy was one of the most-abused treatments known to psychiatry in that day. Today they shock one lobe only (not both) and restrict the treatment to very special cases.

    It would have been better, I say, to "have it out" and face--squarely--the cause of those mood swings. Something was going on in her life with which she never came to grips. You can't shock it away, or wash it out with booze or dope. (Even "properly prescribed" major and minor tranquilizers, in my semi-pro opinion, are still "dope.")
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  • Posted by Maritimus 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello, J,
    I would suggest to you to read Nathaniel Branden's "The Psychology of Romantic Love". As he himself says, at the very end of the book, it is a "love story" about his love for love. I think that it is even more than that. It is also, in my opinion, completely consistent with the Objectivist philosophy. It might give you some insight in your situation, but certainly it could give "rich", the original poster, some insights into his grandparents' realities.
    Good to "talk" to you, J!
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree completely, roneida. I do not view my time with my father as a sacrifice, but as a long expected repayment to someone who instilled proper values into me.
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  • Posted by term2 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    If someone sacrifices for me, I assume that they are getting some value from that. I dont feel guilty for accepting their sacrifice. I think that your "deal" is sort of an insurance policy that makes a lot of sense- at least until the level of care that one of you might require just exceeds that the other person can give. At that point bringing in outside trained help would probably make more sense.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Farmers are a big reason why the death tax has to be eliminated. A lot of farms have been lost because they were land rich and cash poor.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    One quick google came up with the average farm being 500 acres and making after expenses about $5,000.00 Agricorps are no longer owning the land (which means not paying the taxes for starters) but doing a form of co-op leasing. Sort of reverse share cropping. Many of the family farms now work in concert as one farm co-op and don't need duplication of expensive machinery. But come tax time it's all on them....As the cities sprawl the farm lands are the first to go.
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  • Posted by richrobinson 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Excellent point. As long as he could do it she wasn't as much of a burden. Amazing you were so strong at such a young age. Many people use things like that as an excuse to fail.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    There is no question in my mind that farmers are producers in every respect. The practice of being able to grow enough not only to feed one's self (and family) but to have enough left over to engage in trade seems to me to be a highly respectable employ.

    And having dabbled in various garden produce, I can tell you that most Americans do not truly understand how good we have it here in the USA.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    I know many farmers who were millionaires when the rising cost of property and property taxes made that a problem status. The term is land rich and cash poor. For the most part millioniare farmers are spelled AGRICORPS. I have one Uncle who managed 64,000 acres having sold his 160 and taken some of the payments in stocks. He ended up taxed poor Actually did all right. Along with another and their sons went into long haul trucking and harvester combining as a side business
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    You need to get a bit deeper all of that is covered in depth. Lexicon Objectivism A to Z four full pages 266 to 270, In depth the Objectivist Ethics.
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  • Posted by Stormi 9 years ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks, but sometimes what is different, also makes you strong. The hard part was seeing my Dad, usually very objectivist by nature, enabling her I determined I did not want to be like her in her indulgences, I was too young, 15 when she died, to know why she was the way she was. I spent much time with my horse, in the meadow, or studying my school work. I could not change her, so I tried to avoid her (as she could be mean), and put my focus on moving forward. I can't ever remember feeling sorry for myself, in fact, I often felt lucky - to have pets, grandparents, a successful dad. While he enabled my mom, Dad expected a lot from me in responsibility, which made me feel capable of it. I am sure when your grandfather helped your grandmother up, he felt closer to her, they were going through it together. He likely did not want her to feel a burden everyone needed to help.
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