The problem is that this alleged "agreement" is an artificial construct, not the actual agreement or consent, with knowledge of the terms, that is required in contract law or in everyday human interactions in order to bind an individual. And I hope your argument isn't that the majority has the right to vote to bind me to a contract that I personally refuse.
If I don't "agree" with this government, what are my options? Not many, as I'm still subject to the laws and must pay taxes. I can't even leave the country without jumping through numerous hoops and paying large sums of money to get the state's permission.
The reality of this alleged implied "agreement" to whatever government we happen to be born under is nothing more than slavery; we are state property. Under this system, we never have the option to meaningfully consent or not consent, and we certainly don't have the option (once we attain the age of reason) to withdraw our consent as free, self-owning beings.
Hi, Solver! I don't understand why you believe forcible taxation as opposed to voluntary financial support of protection, rule-making, and mediation services is a false choice. Will you please explain?
It seems to me that once financial contributions are voluntary (which Ayn Rand wanted), every person has the option of not funding the government, and has the option of paying a different service provider. The end result seems to be what both Objectivists and Anarchists/Voluntaryists want. Meanwhile, our current system of forced tribute is what neither of us want. So isn't forced vs. voluntary financing a key choice, rather than a false choice?
There are limited options available for some individuals in strictly private disputes, but you can't turn to private mediation for anything considered a violation of government law or regulations. Besides this, the state has a monopoly on dictating what is a crime or violation, hence the many non-violent offenses that can land you in jail, sometimes for life. And government has the monopoly on applying justice and enforcement, so the application of the law is very unequal. If you have pull, you can harm others horribly and pay no price.
False Choice! Is it only the force of government that can provide the vastly complex array of "services" that many individuals want while many others do not?
We need to keep any "necessary evil" as small as possible. Then it's overall cost is very little.
Valid points. I'm fairly certain I agree in full, besides how we define government which is arbitrary. So I have to ask you, do you think people should be taxed for the services a government provides, or should we pay for the services voluntarily?
I too have answered with reason. I doubt you'll have the ability to provide a rational reasoned response to refute. I expect more ad hominem in return.
Let's see. You put a post up on a Friday before the first major holiday of the summer, and then want to proclaim self-congratulation that nobody bothered to answer - proclaiming this a victory for the argument. Sheesh. How juvenile.
Your fundamental premise (and that of Mr. Childs) is that a government inherently must be initiated as an entity that threatens to use force as a condition of it's existence. That is a red herring. A government is merely any entity that all parties agree has authority to decide (thus, govern). It is the agreement on the authority that makes it a government, not the use or threat of the use of force. The ability of the use of force provides the government the substance to effect it's authority, but it derives the authority from the consent - at least for those bodies that embody freedoms, like the US and most of the western world. For those that embody tyranny, their power does in fact derive from force first. Debate ended.
If someone is trespassing then yes I have a right to defend my land, especially if I put up signs and fences. Without the signs and fences or some kind of labor mixed with the land it's hard for me to just declare it mine though. And I don't think violence would be my first answer, I'd try to come to some kind of agreement with him.
I dunno, I'll think about it.
Maybe instead of buying land in Wyoming I'll just have you guys bill me for anything I use that was payed for by taxes and I'll pay it as long as you don't infringe on my ability to make contracts with others. How does that sound?
Yes, education is highly inefficient, so let's just establish a totalitarian regime and dictate to the people. Of course, we'll be benevolent dictators, so nothing to worry about.
How do you think you're going to be left out of it?
Lets say you purchase 1000 acres of land out in Wyoming. You have all the resources on that property that you need to survive without interacting with the rest of society, so you seemingly have no need for "government." Everything goes along just fine for some time - you have no income so no taxes, you don't require fire or police services, you are seemingly fully self sufficient and devoid of government (yes, I'm conveniently leaving out the issue of property taxes, let's just assume no such thing exists). A new neighbor moves in next door and likes your property that is adjacent to his. So much so, that he begins to use it for his own needs. You now have a dispute about who gets to use those resources.
You can - 1) Utilize retaliatory force to evict the invading neighbor, at which time the neighbor may escalate and use even greater force to retain his violation of your property, such escalation could continue to the point of loss of life, the ultimate loss of liberty.
2) You could discuss the violation with the neighbor and reason with him to stop the violation, at which point the neighbor may or may not agree or even care about your property rights and revert to scenario 1.
3) You may employ some outside agency to act on your behalf, which will only result in either scenario 1 or 2.
4) You can bring the violation to an external entity to mediate, but if that external agent doesn't have the ability to enforce the decision you end up with scenario 1 or 2.
5) You can bring the violation to an external entity to mediate that does have the inherent power - which is a government.
Contracts only obligate those who are parties to the contract. Thus, if you opt out, you are not obligated. Unless you propose to use force to contractually obligate everyone (in which case, you've just created the government that you so despise).
Correct! These free-market anarchists get wrapped around who is vested with the use of force and confuse that with government. As you correctly point out, the creation of common rules and the ability to enforce those are de facto government. It matters not whether the actual mechanism is a publicly financed body or privately financed bodies.
You are wrong. There are private mediation services to which various parties subscribe. Thus, this is already taking place, and undercuts your statement.
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If I don't "agree" with this government, what are my options? Not many, as I'm still subject to the laws and must pay taxes. I can't even leave the country without jumping through numerous hoops and paying large sums of money to get the state's permission.
The reality of this alleged implied "agreement" to whatever government we happen to be born under is nothing more than slavery; we are state property. Under this system, we never have the option to meaningfully consent or not consent, and we certainly don't have the option (once we attain the age of reason) to withdraw our consent as free, self-owning beings.
It seems to me that once financial contributions are voluntary (which Ayn Rand wanted), every person has the option of not funding the government, and has the option of paying a different service provider. The end result seems to be what both Objectivists and Anarchists/Voluntaryists want. Meanwhile, our current system of forced tribute is what neither of us want. So isn't forced vs. voluntary financing a key choice, rather than a false choice?
We need to keep any "necessary evil" as small as possible. Then it's overall cost is very little.
Debate ended.
I dunno, I'll think about it.
Maybe instead of buying land in Wyoming I'll just have you guys bill me for anything I use that was payed for by taxes and I'll pay it as long as you don't infringe on my ability to make contracts with others. How does that sound?
Lets say you purchase 1000 acres of land out in Wyoming. You have all the resources on that property that you need to survive without interacting with the rest of society, so you seemingly have no need for "government." Everything goes along just fine for some time - you have no income so no taxes, you don't require fire or police services, you are seemingly fully self sufficient and devoid of government (yes, I'm conveniently leaving out the issue of property taxes, let's just assume no such thing exists). A new neighbor moves in next door and likes your property that is adjacent to his. So much so, that he begins to use it for his own needs. You now have a dispute about who gets to use those resources.
You can -
1) Utilize retaliatory force to evict the invading neighbor, at which time the neighbor may escalate and use even greater force to retain his violation of your property, such escalation could continue to the point of loss of life, the ultimate loss of liberty.
2) You could discuss the violation with the neighbor and reason with him to stop the violation, at which point the neighbor may or may not agree or even care about your property rights and revert to scenario 1.
3) You may employ some outside agency to act on your behalf, which will only result in either scenario 1 or 2.
4) You can bring the violation to an external entity to mediate, but if that external agent doesn't have the ability to enforce the decision you end up with scenario 1 or 2.
5) You can bring the violation to an external entity to mediate that does have the inherent power - which is a government.
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