LGBT Objectivists

Posted by $ MikeMarotta 8 years, 11 months ago to Culture
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When I said that I am transgendered, I was being provocative, but not entirely untruthful. It hinges on the definition of “gender.” When our daughter was born in 1979, it was quickly very clear that I knew more about running a home than did my wife whose mother was a lawyer. I was Mr. Mom four years before Michael Keaton. Gender is a role. Masculinity and femininity are learned within a culture. Sex is a physical attribute. Moreover, just as gender roles exist along a spectrum, so does sex. Nonetheless, the mass media and LGBT advocates alike misuse the words "gender" and "sex" with ambivalence and contradiction. I am not responsible for them. Still, the fact remains that LGBT people are found within Objectivism. Objectivists advocate on the same side as LGBT activists for many of the same issues. You can find many discussions of these topics on the Objectivist discussion boards. I point to these:

“What is the Objectivist view …?” by Bridget Armozel on Rebirth of Reason here.
http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Obje...
(I believe that Bridget was born a male, but you would have to read all of her posts closely to determine that.)

Jeanine Ring is also apparently a transgender Objectivist. She is the author of a collection of poems, “Deck of Cards: A Courtesan’s Book of Illusions.” See Rebirth of Reason here:
http://rebirthofreason.com/Articles/R...

She also launched a discussion of this media sound-bite:
"Jordan Lorence, a Phoenix-based lawyer with the conservative Alliance Defense Fund.... said 'Americans face a choice of whether to view marriage as primarily an act of individual satisfaction or as an institution serving the communal good.'"
On Rebirth of Reason here:
http://rebirthofreason.com/cgi-bin/SH...

On Objectivist Living, this was one of several discussions on LGBT topics:
Seal Team Six Veteran Inspired by Atlas Shrugged Goes TG
Read here:
http://www.objectivistliving.com/foru...

Also on Objectivist Living was this discussion: “Homosexuality: Does Choice Matter?” Not surprisingly, it garnered 170 posts as rational individualists argued their notions pro and con.
http://www.objectivistliving.com/foru...

Dr. Leonard Peikoff of the Ayn Rand Institute is against any form of sexual deviation, calling them all irrational attempts to fake reality. That claim, among others, is discussed on Objectivist Living under the rubric, “Peikoff’s Latest Howler.” Dennis Hardin (Ph.D. in psychology and a licensed therapist) commented here:
http://www.objectivistliving.com/foru...

Prof. Deirdre McCloskey started writing about "bourgeois virtues" back in 1990 when she was Donald McCloskey. She now has three books glorifying the middle class values of capitalism. Her website has a tab for Gender Change:
http://www.deirdremccloskey.com/gende...
McCloskey was fired from his professorship when he changed sex. Fortunately, and not surprisingly, several universities jumped at the opportunity to bring her to their faculties.

It should be clear that LGBT issues are not the monopoly of the left.

The dimensions of gender and sex are not unique to humans. As I pointed out on Rebirth of Reason:

http://rebirthofreason.com/Forum/Gene...
The Evolution of Sexual Reproduction
NOTE: These are lecture notes for Biology 391, Organic Evolution
For example, in water fleas (crustaceans in the genus Daphnia), which live in ponds, reproduction is asexual -- females produce females asexually -- throughout the spring and summer, but when they are getting ready to produce the forms that will overwinter and hatch out the next spring (possibly in a very different environment, since it will be a different year), males are produced and then they reproduce sexually. So sexual reproduction is timed to occur when the environment is about to change.
http://www.utm.edu/departments/cens/b...

Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
James Owen in London- for National Geographic News - July 23, 2004
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.

Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.

But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/ne...

(My comment: According to Objectivism, animals have automatic modes of survival. They cannot choose to be anything other than what they are. We inherited two billion years of evolution from them. Dr. Leonard Peikoff claimed that transgendered individuals are irrational and anti-reality, declaring that their whims are superior to nature. (Did he say nature or "Nature"?) Rather than acting contrary to reality, they seem to be acting in accordance with it.)

Perhaps the best exposition on LGBT issues and Objectivism is the monograph Ayn Rand, Homosexuality, and Human Liberation by Chris Matthew Sciabarra with a foreword by Lindsay Perigo. (Sciabarra is the author of several books about Ayn Rand. He also edits the Journal of Ayn Rand Studies.)

"Chris Sciabarra's discussion of homosexuality and the moralistic, unreasoning rage unleashed against it--and against Dr. Sciabarra--by a small number of self-appointed guardians of the 'one true Objectivist faith' almost make it embarrassing to admit that one has any past or present association with Objectivism. The booklet is an expose of cultism at its most hysterical." --Nathaniel Branden. (See rebirthofreason.com/Store/Ayn_Rand,_H...

You can find the book for sale on Amazon:
“A combination philosophical exegesis, sociological study, and political tract, this monograph examines Ayn Rand's impact on the sexual attitudes of self-identified Objectivists in the movement to which she gave birth and the gay subculture that she would have disowned.” http://www.amazon.com/Ayn-Rand-Homose...


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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 11 months ago
    I'm sure there is some relevancy in terms of gender change and homosexuality and the like. Speaking for myself, I really don't care what people do with their genitals -- as long as it's only their own genitals. I don't mind moderate public hugging and kissing, I find it romantic. More than that, well OK, but Get A Room!
    Sexual activity falls somewhere between bodily function and romantic love, looking at both extremes. When bodily function rises to interpersonal concern and then to love (yes, I believe in love) we have the ideal. It is a difficult achievement. Even so-called love at first sight can deteriorate over the years, so love not only must be achieved, it must be maintained.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
    I am frankly shocked by the comments here.

    First, why would anyone care about another's choices, until they compel one to support them or into involuntary servitude. That element of the LGBT "movement" is inappropriate, as is the media-tarian PC position.

    Separately, the arguments presented that LGBT is "wrong" or nonobjective are subjective. Quite simply, homosexual behavior exists in nature, in a variety of animals, including humans. How is a desire "wrong" if no one is harmed by it or its practice?
    In addition, there are clearly natural conditions (many snails and slugs for example) and mutations in animals and people causing them to be hermaphrodites (with both sex organs). If "One's sex is determined at birth." (the most upvoted, but unsupported comment herein), which sex is a hermaphodite?
    Further, if there are physical conditions causing real physical differences, then how is the far simpler mental/physiological bias not even more plausible. If this bias exists, how does it hurt anyone, including one's self, and how does it "...reject reality...", if it is real.

    If one is naturally biased in one of these directions, and gains comfort or pleasure from its practice, without compelling another, there is no evidence of subjectivity.

    Requiring others to fiscally support LGBT behavior or to unwillingly participate in it is a different question, than can an LGBT be an Objectivist.
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    • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
      "homosexual behavior exists in nature"
      I agree with everything you say in your msg above. I would just add one point. Whether it exists in nature doesn't matter. Something existing in nature does not make acceptable, and something being done for the first time by some human, never before seen in nature, does not make it wrong.
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      • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
        My point about nature is not a justification, but a preemptive response to an old argument that homosexuality is unnatural.
        I agree. Cannibalism and infanticide exist in nature, and they are not acceptable human behaviors.
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  • Posted by BrettRocketSci 8 years, 11 months ago
    Most of these comments are more baffling to me than the original post. We are all individuals with a unique identity. Yes, that identity includes genetics which specify either male or female. But biology is a complex thing, and a person's identity is more than their genetics.
    I'm a male in every respect, but I am educated enough to know that homosexuality exists in nature with other species, and it certainly exists in humans too. I don't have any choice about my sexual preference, so I infer that others don't either.
    I don't understand why anyone is so threatened by people with sexual preferences that are different than their own. Whatever they are; they are. The most rational position is to assume it is not a choice but a factor of many things. Genetics is one component but as living beings with hormones and environmental factors it is ignorant to presume that biology is going to be consistent and "neat" with everyone in a species, especially for matters that are tied to our psychology.
    I have no problem accepting people on their word that they fall somewhere other than 100% heterosexual on the gender identity and attraction spectrum (even though that is me). They are still individuals with their own unique identity that deserves our respect and recognition of their rights to live as they choose best. Enough with the closed mindedness and arrogance, I say.
    That said, I do believe evidence is strong that there are efforts to use the LGBT movement for evil purposes. But that's a different issue. I'm sure there can be LBGT Objectivists and I don't see why any other objectivist should have a problem with it. Unless they aren't willing to learn something.
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    • Posted by $ puzzlelady 8 years, 10 months ago
      Lifeforms evolved to be reproductive. The physical equipment's primary function is replication, and to this end the body and its software have built-in chemical and psychological inducements to drive the mating urge and the mate selection process.

      Humans are arguably the most complex animals, and the more complexity can arise, the more potential permutations come to the fore. Whether mutations are natural or a defect is often culturally determined. Societies have an underlying template of behaviors by which individual members are measured. Belief systems that evolved for the preservation of the group make deviants suspect and subject to rejection, sometimes gruesomely so.

      In a free and open society that respects individual rights and differences, and the right to be different, it doesn't matter what mutations may arise, provided they don’t affect others’ rights. And if the mutations are successful towards survival, that group will continue to proliferate. Same-sex couplings are not conducive to physical reproduction, though emotionally same-sex couples may wish to adopt others' offspring to fulfill the equally built-in urge to nurture.

      When individuals find in themselves a physical anomaly, a sexual preference for an identity other than their physical birth gender, or a preference for a mate of their own gender, that is just a variation natural selection dialed up. It is only cultural memes that tend to dictate or limit what a member of a group should be allowed to want or be.

      By the same token, the intolerance of churches for non-generic gender manifestation is a hypocritical denial of their much-touted belief that everything is the will of God. They should accept gender variations as the work and plan of God and stop persecuting people for their inborn natures.

      There is no danger of extinction of the species as long as a large enough percentage of individual members are of the reproductive variety. It may well be that a rising number of non-replicators is a natural selection in the face of over-population. And even if only very few members are natural replicators, science can achieve artificial fertilization to produce enough specimens to keep a working population going.

      If Objectivists are by name advocates and adherents of principles of respecting an objective reality, and that reality includes gender variety in all its rainbow spectrum, then yes, LGBTQ individuals can certainly be Objectivists, and vice versa. In fact, the respect for individual rights and freedoms that is the hallmark of the Objectivist ethics also requires acceptance of individual differences, including gender identities. Any rejection of gender diversity on the part of individual Objectivists is an aberration, a selective departure from the much-vaunted objectivity of the philosophy, including the pro-heterosexual and “man-worshipping” proclivities of its founder. Is it ironic that she never produced offspring? Nor did her main heroes?

      Strictly and objectively speaking, from the standpoint of species preservation, sex aimed only at selfish enjoyment and avoiding reproduction can also be regarded as a deviant practice. Add another letter on the collection: LGBTQS.

      Interesting that one more preference, the celibate, is not included among the sexual practices that free individuals may choose, including for dubious religious reasons. Some cultures do put strong pressure on their populations to produce as many offspring as possible to outbreed their rivals.

      The fundamental principle for human happiness: “To thine own self be true.”
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  • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
    LGBT activist and the general movement are not Objectivist. They want their Rights to be superior to those of others and want gov't and any other social institutions to recognize that and force it on others.

    I'm an 'Individualist' and happen to agree with AR that the smallest minority is the Individual and that gov't's only duty is to protect Individual Natural Rights in society, as determined by man's nature and identity, and his needs to live successfully as he determines for himself. I also agree that some rare number of individuals are born with a 'birth defect' in their sexual identity and even a rarer number in their genital development. It's not something they have a choice in, it's simply a mistake of nature, and in my mind it is no different than any other 'birth defect', except that their individual burden to deal with their defect in order to develop into full consciousness and success in life is much less than other more physical and mental function 'defects'.

    But I detest those that have taken a word (gender) that until sometime in the 60's was defined as a description of words and word usage, and have re-translated it in an attempt to make physical mutilation an acceptable form of mental disorder or defect treatment, very similar and on the same level of those with such 'self hate' that progresses to the point of self directed amputation or other mutilation of body parts. It makes as much sense as brain mutilation to treat mental disease or disorder, or tribal genital mutilation (clitorectomy) of young girls in an attempt to control possible promiscuity in later life.

    I also find it abhorrent that society and/or gov't tries to make rules and laws to control the activities and behaviors of those afflicted with such birth defects or to control others' reactions to those birth defects, or to force others to 'accommodate' those afflicted by making their Individual Rights subservient to the afflicted.

    And I can't leave out my disgust for the 'ignorance and stupidity' of those that use their religious teachings/beliefs to express their biases against the afflicted. I can also state that as a 6 or 7 yr old, I played 'Doctor' with a girl playmate, had to change the diaper of a baby girl in my teens and was the only person available to help a 70 yr old neighbor lady escape the clutches of her washing machine wringer, discovered at 30 that my 3rd youngest brother was gay and had been his entire life and apparently everyone else in the family but me knew it, and in my 20's learned to share public restrooms with women. I wasn't accosted in any of those 'traumatic incidents (well there was the rather persistent B-girl in Sasebo) nor did I develop into some form of perversion or decadence from those shocking and traumatic exposures, except to find enjoyment at some nudist beaches and natural hot springs until my stomach got bigger than my chest.

    edit for clarity
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    • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 11 months ago
      +1, especially for the first and fourth paragraphs.

      When the Founding Fathers set up this nation they certainly didn't want the despotism of a monarchy or the tyranny of the majority as in pure democracy mob rule, so they created the constitutional republic that has managed to survive successfully so far. They, however, never saw this coming and offered no provision for it. That is, the TYRANNY of the MINORITY as fostered by a run away legal system in a PC social environment where even an aberrant sliver of the population can force all others to obediently genuflect in submission.
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      • Posted by Zenphamy 8 years, 11 months ago
        Oh, I think they foresaw the problems, but they relied on each generation of us to keep it straight. That's why Jefferson wrote later on in life that the Republic would only last if a revolution occurred every generation--20 to 40 years apart--to remove the power seekers, politicians, and looters and then restore the primacy of Individual Rights. He at least, knew that no amount of words combined into ideas on a piece of vellum would prevent the manipulators from swaying the weaker minded, lacking the principles necessary to maintain individual freedom.
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        • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 11 months ago
          Jefferson did say "The tree of liberty needs to be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants". Are we overdue? I'd rather see bloodless revolution at the voting booth. However, there seems to be so much ignorance in the information age perhaps Jefferson's quote will become inevitable.
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          • Posted by $ 8 years, 10 months ago
            Jefferson never fired a shot. He was brilliant and accomplished. Nonetheless, among his (many) character flaws, he induced other people to kill and die for his ideals.

            Thomas Paine actually served in the Continental Army.
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            • Posted by mccannon01 8 years, 10 months ago
              Jefferson's service to his new country didn't have to be in the Continental Army to earn a potential British noose with his name on it. The stakes were high and he threw his lot and life in for liberty. His articulation of the ideals that would frame the new nation offered a choice rather than inducement. Arguably, we are having this conversation because many chose liberty over despotism and were willing to risk all to achieve it, including Jefferson. He could have just as easily stayed home on the farm and not participated one way or the other.
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      • Posted by $ Suzanne43 8 years, 11 months ago
        Well said! People know about the tyranny of the majority, but what they seem to not know or have put aside because of PC is that the tyranny of the minority is equally as bad and at times worse.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
      I noticed that you put "birth defect" in quotes, but then dropped it. As humans have 46 chromosomes and all other great apes have 48, how strongly or consistently would you label humans as "apes with a birth defect"? Mutation does not carry the same moral connotation that "defect" does. Even abnormality conveys less prejudgement, certainly less than "affliction."
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  • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 11 months ago
    One's sex is determined at birth, not by one's wishes. To be a transgender is to reject one's sex and reality itself. That is not rational. Thus there is a strong argument that a transgender cannot truly be an Objectivist.
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    • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 11 months ago
      I think to be transgender is a mental disorder revealed in but a sliver of the population.
      And I suppose Lynchin' Loretta of the DOJ and other more than equal betters of King Barry's regime
      view my point of view about that as being as criminal as my denial of man-made climate change.
      Old Dino is an uppity lizard! Uppity! Uppity!
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      • Posted by $ 8 years, 10 months ago
        Selfishness is a mental disorder, if you want to think of it that way. It "unnatural" for a member of an innate inherited group to reject the group. ... or so it has been claimed.
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        • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 10 months ago
          I reject man with a penis being in the same restroom with one of my little granddaughters
          I don't care where his selfish--yeah, selfish the world all about him--transgender mind-bender is at.
          That includes sharing showers with my grown nieces.
          Now should the dude have his male genitalia removed, that is a horse of a different color.
          Unremoved chest hair should still freak them out though.
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    • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 11 months ago
      This is an unsupported assertion. What sex is a hermaphrodite? They exist widely in nature and in humans. Which reality do you offer them?

      There are natural physical biases, such as hermaphrodites and others as well. How then are psychological biases not even more plausible? They are. They have existed forever, and they will continue to exist. If one has such a bias, and they compel no one else to support it, how is the practice of this bias nonobjective?

      There is no valid argument, that any LGBT can not be an Objectivist.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 10 months ago
      What about attempting to raise your IQ? Is intelligence set at birth? Is it anti-reality to want to change yours? "Natural" height? "Natural" weight? How many Olympians are born with the "natrural" ability to do those things. Do you object to shaving or haircuts? Or hair dye? (Or clothing, for that matter...)

      As for what "sex" is, that, too, is obviously complicated for the entire animal kingdom, of which we are but a natural element of a huge set that can be measured along many axes. It is certainly complicated for us, the apparent crown of creation.
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      • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 10 months ago
        You are what philosophers call a subjectivist.
        Reality is not that difficult a concept to grasp.
        Man is not merely along a scale with animals....
        Sex is not comparable with "height/weight..." wrt birth determination.
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    • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 11 months ago
      Sex maybe, gender identity, not always. Not in approx 1 in 1000 or so cases. This is a fact. It is not open to your wishes or what you claim to be the case. A real objectivist does not deny facts.
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    • Posted by Solver 8 years, 11 months ago
      The typical lefty punishment for those that think that these kinds of things, such as race or sex are determined at birth, is to have "IST!!!" appended to the subject and the new word progressively repeated over and over, in capital letters, at the offender using media of all types.
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    • Posted by $ Olduglycarl 8 years, 11 months ago
      I agree that Gender Roles, ( Not Gender), are cultural or shared in certain circumstances...example: child Care.
      But above all...there is a reason why North and South Attract...Particle bonding and Electricity...It's just how things are held together...it doesn't work any other way. I am not ashamed or any less objective by reflecting that image naturally.
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  • Posted by Enyway 8 years, 11 months ago
    I did not read all of the links. Two things are important. First of all, I don't care who you are or whom you need to be. Secondly, I know this is probably unusual, I have no clue what LGBT means, and I don't care. you're male, you're female. Are you human? Then you have a voice. We are talking about our freedom. If there is any reason you dislike someone, ask them to leave your home. If you are in their home, you leave. Freedom is everyone's business. Freedom first. Nothing is more important.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
    "it was quickly very clear that I knew more about running a home than did my wife whose mother was a lawyer. "
    My wife is a lawyer. Our UU congregation asked her, not me, to teach a class to the 4- and 5-y/o's. The first less one was "I have two hands and two feet." She said it took all her restraint to resist saying, "Well no $hit Sherlock. You have two #@(%ing hands." You want her protecting your interests in court and documents but not teaching your kids.

    Before I met her I imagined attorneys rarely swore. "Two hands, res ipsa locquitur," I imagined. No. They do that in court. They let the foul language out as soon as they're off duty. It's odd they just expected her to teach the class. I mean, I'm glad they didn't ask me. I'm not teacher. With no malice whatsoever in my heart, I made one of my students nearly cry in Analog Electronics II; I never meant to be harsh at all. I just forget what you earn in 1st grade and what you learn in Circuits I b/c they both feel like long ago. I feel awful about coming off that way.

    My wife said one her female lawyer friends once said she wished her husband could find a junior wife to do the "womanly" duties. We thought that was so kinky, Muslim, or something. Now we completely understand. Obviously we don't mean it literally, but we don't have any one person between us who sweetly identifies with kids' playworld and cares about the color schemes of the house. We both have to share that responsibility, with an awkward lawyer/engineer blend, which which we are doing our damnedest not to drive the kids to grow up and tell their therapist about how messed up it all was.

    I really think it would be easier, but not better, if society forced us: "Here are your roles, and you don't get a choice." But we live in a better society than that, thankfully.
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    • Posted by Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
      Nobody has perfect parents. My mom was an alcoholic/drug addict who died because of it when I was 15. No nurturing there. My dad raised me the only way he knew how, include me in his interests, like his interest in cars, and helping him in his workshop. However, he was a manager whose job kept him at work long hours. I learned Objectivism from his example, before I knew what it was. It did not leave me much in the way of knowing how to parent, and I was more the responsibility pushing parent, than the nurturing type. My CPA husband was too busy with his practice to do much first hand parenting either. We muddled through, like you, and our daughter has two Masters Degrees, a good job, but maybe not the most intense parenting interest
      I have to say one of my early memories involves a gay neighbor, who is the only reason I have childhood photos, his hobby. It was known in the 50s, and I knew by grade school, but her was like family. He was caring and made me laugh, and enjoyed my birthdays as much as I did. To this day, I have a gay pal, with whom I e-mail almost daily. He and I share an interest in Wright architecture and Corvettes. Somehow, we all seem to survive if we feel we are responsible for ourselves. If we don't dwell on the bad parts, but go forward and do the best we can, life is fine. There is nothing worse than victimhood which is then forced upon everyone we meet, with the expectation everyone should make it up to us. That is the real issue I have with the LGBT movement, politicians who foster that kind of thinking and encourage any group to think like victims. If people just go forward, maybe learn some philosophy, and interact, they will find life will embrace them.
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
        "My mom was an alcoholic/drug addict who died because of it when I was 15."
        I'm sorry to hear that. Both my wife's parents died of alcoholism. Her older brother was the responsible one in the house until his g/f got pregnant and he moved out. Then she was oddly "the parent" in the household, and her parents were the children. It was very unhealthful. She became a successful attorney who doesn't touch alcohol or other drugs to get away from that past.

        She too is anti-victimhood. She wonders if it's better to hide the facts or to say it aloud. She wants to be able to say it aloud without people thinking of her as a victim but rather thinking there should be fundraiser walks or whatever to cure alcoholism, along with the ones for cancer and heart disease.

        This relates to AS because she feels more comfortable (not happier, but more comfortable) taking care of people who don't have their act together at the expense of herself. She knows it's unhealthy but falls into the somebody's-got-to-take-care-of-his-sorry-ass trap. I'm sometimes amazed at how close stories from the world of the poor are to AS.

        I liked hearing your story about the CPA husband and being an ACoA. Sometimes I feel like I'm in this rare situation the world has never seen before.
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        • Posted by Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
          Circuit Guy,
          I think I was unaware how bad my mom's situation was until I read the autopsy -complete self-destruction! Her sister died six months after her, alcohol poisoning. She left behind a young teen daughter as well, who now needs alcohol to relax. I basically lived my life, not speaking of it, but not hiding it, until I started seeing so many young people dying from drug addiction, including my husband's nephew. Why?
          Your wife should speak of it, and try to introduce people to easy Rand philosophy, "Anthem" maybe.It has to come from inside them, not from enablers, as happened with my our nephew. They have to feel strong inside. Philosophy teaches one to be strong and to avoid victimhood. That is why altruism is so bad, it weakens the inner person, the recipient. Before I studied Rand, I remember reading history and John Stuart Mill, and how against overhelping he was, saying it made the person less free.Then I moved into Sartre, who made it clear there were always choices, no matter our situations. It was about moving forward, not clinging to the past. That was until the poor guy got overwhelmed and went Marxist!
          It drives me crazy that schools teach kids, first to rely on peers over adults, and that there is no "I" in team. Garbage, which makes them more susceptible to follow the leader into drugs, and back in, if they do get off.That is why "Anthem" is so important, the sheer joy of "I", you can't get sucked in. At only 90 pages, it is perfect for teens.
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        • Posted by Stormi 8 years, 11 months ago
          Circuit Guy,
          I think I was unaware how bad my mom's situation was until I read the autopsy -complete self-destruction! Her sister died six months after her, alcohol poisoning. She left behind a young teen daughter as well, who now needs alcohol to relax. I basically lived my life, not speaking of it, but not hiding it, until I started seeing so many young people dying from drug addiction, including my husband's nephew. Why?
          Your wife should speak of it, and try to introduce people to easy Rand philosophy, "Anthem" maybe.It has to come from inside them, not from enablers, as happened with my our nephew. They have to feel strong inside. Philosophy teaches one to be strong and to avoid victimhood. That is why altruism is so bad, it weakens the inner person, the recipient. Before I studied Rand, I remember reading history and John Stuart Mill, and how against overhelping he was, saying it made the person less free.Then I moved into Sartre, who made it clear there were always choices, no matter our situations. It was about moving forward, not clinging to the past. That was until the poor guy got overwhelmed and went Marxist!
          It drives me crazy that schools teach kids, first to rely on peers over adults, and that there is no "I" in team. Garbage, which makes them more susceptible to follow the leader into drugs, and back in, if they do get off.That is why "Anthem" is so important, the sheer joy of "I", you can't get sucked in. At only 90 pages, it is perfect for teens.
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    • Posted by khalling 8 years, 11 months ago
      I think you are probably being hard on yourself. There are lots of kids who don't appreciate "winnie-the-Pooh" quiet, Mr. Rogers parenting styles. (No offense to those who like Pooh and Mr. Rogers). My parents were both teachers and I was a latch key kid in a time when there were few latch key kids in small, rural towns. They saved all their patience for their students. Let me tell you.
      Db and I, both Type A personalities, had to negotiate who took on the primary parenting role. Db is much more of a nurturer than I am, but he had the background and skills to earn more while we were raising children. We both felt that one of us should be available at all times for them while they were little. I took on the role. While I was a no-nonsense type of mother-no talking in sweet, dulcet tones- we rubbed along well. and children always chose our house to come over to play. I'm still flummoxed by that. To earn money for college, I worked as a counselor at a Girl Scout camp. I had no real affinity for little girl managing, but for some reason, my table at mealtimes was always full compared to one other counselor, who was popular, nicknamed "Pooh bear."
      I completely understand the "Two hands, Two feet" lesson-but it was ultimately an altruistic one, I bet. :)
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      • Posted by CircuitGuy 8 years, 11 months ago
        "I completely understand the "Two hands, Two feet" lesson-but it was ultimately an altruistic one, I bet."
        Probably. I think she stopped reading it at that point. Some people at that church have some issues in that regard. Every year or two we get an e-mail how we need more parents to volunteer for teaching religious education (RE). They say we know people have other things going on, but they wish they could find some way for parents to make volunteering to teach a priority. I think, "We should come up with a new invention, hey. We could things we're good at like lawyering or engineering, and people would give it us and then we could give some of it to people who love teaching to make them want to teach. It would be awesome!" I'm not sarcastic with the youth director, but it just seems like the obvious solution when they write, "what on earth could we do to encourage people to teach?" As parents, we don't expect the program to be free. I have no clue why they don't simply charge enough money to pay for teachers. The poor could pay for their kids to be in by volunteering in the program. Maybe the issue is some people (not me) see something meretricious about paying someone to provide a loving environment for kids.
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  • Posted by $ sjatkins 8 years, 11 months ago
    I am in fact transgendered, trassexual to be specific. I went through the full change process 25 years ago. I can't tell you how totally nonplussed I am to wonder if I will be harrassed going to a restroom after all of this time of living my life in peace.

    Gender is not just a "role". There are gender roles or norms for behavior of a gender in a culture. But this not the same at all as gender identity. Nor is it determined entirely in all cases by ones chromosomes. It is unfortunately a biological fact that it is a bit more complicated than that. That approximately 1 in 1000 human beings have some bit of mismatch between whether they are XX or XY (or something other than the normal two choices) and whatever programs part of gender identity in the brain during gestation is a fact. It is not a philosophical question. It happens. Some of us have the gender identity programming out of sync with the rest of our body gender dimorphic body programming. I was born one of them.

    While the mechanism is not fully understood it has been understood for some time that people like me exist and it is not a psychological pathology or a matter of low hormones or a perversion or just being gay or any of the other things people and even some doctors have tried to map to it.

    I don't want any rights beyond the inalienable rights inherent to being a human being. Neither do LGBT people in general. I am tired of people that really don't understand the facts of these things or what most of us do and don't want falling for the rhetoric spewed by those that want to deny us inalienable rights or continue our harrassment and being treated as second class citizens. Not long ago being gay or lesbian was a felony in many a state. Was is a special right of not being treated as a criminal just for existing?

    Armchair philosophers need to actually look into the horse's mouth to see how many teeth it in fact has rather than arguing about it. They need to look at the varieties of human sexuality and human gender identity rather than arguing what is "should be" and condemning all who break what they think "should be" as being obviously "deluded" or "crazy" or "perverted" or "irrational". We are none of these things. And we reject roundly your rejection of the reality of our very existence. Any of your who reject any facts of reality are in that degree not acting like objectivists at all.
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  • Posted by $ SarahMontalbano 8 years, 10 months ago
    I'm blown away by the discussion here. Although I'm not going to get dragged into a debate until I've chewed these ideas for a while, I would like you all to know that I consider myself bisexual and I've been struggling with how to reconcile this with my objectivist beliefs. I'm very happy that this is finally being discussed.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 10 months ago
      Sarah, if you read the book that I cited in the beginning by Chris Sciabarra, Ayn Rand, Homosexuality, and Human Liberation, you may find how others have done that. Whether they achieved their goal or not, you can always use reason and reality as your standards when developing and testing ideas about your own happiness.
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  • Posted by johnpe1 8 years, 11 months ago
    I have found that a full appreciation of all of the joys
    in life requires familiarity with the range of sex- or
    gender-related points-of-view. . by pushing myself,
    a good part of that range has been explored in my
    67 years. . there has never been any faking of reality
    nor non-voluntary behavior. . people are wonderful
    and knowing their abilities to experience joy is itself
    a value. . while I am male, sometimes I love as a
    female would -- because it achieves better results.
    gentleness and sentimentality give my marriage a
    stronger bond, as well. . love is best served flexibly. -- j
    .
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 11 months ago
    One's sex is determined by the hardware he has. To get that changed is merely cosmetic surgery; and as with other kinds of cosmetic surgery, some people are pleased with the results while others regret getting it done, but I don't see the need to judge anyone for it as long as they did it with their own money.

    (Aside: The whole concept of a mental disorder is more dangerous than it's worth and ought to be purged from the language. Once you decide that such a thing exists, it's a slippery slope to deciding that anyone whose priorities are different from yours is by definition crazy, and then we no longer have the rule of law. If Objectivism insists on such judgments then that's one more reason I'm not an O.)

    As far as bathroom issues, I'd rather just remodel all bathrooms to be single-user than have rules about who can go into which one, especially since the only way to enforce the rules would be to have someone at the door checking people's actual sex parts.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 11 months ago
      The questions about "hardware" are complicated. Aristotle put the mind in the heart and said that the brain acts to cool the blood. Many people today model the brain on a digital computer. An endocrinologist would say that the brain may be another gland. The empirical evidence seems strong that you can have male genitals and a female brain.

      I believe that the Objectivist Newsletter of the early 1960s published a favorable review of the works of Dr. Thomas Szasz, who advocated against labeling people who are different as crazy.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 8 years, 10 months ago
    "(My comment: According to Objectivism, animals have automatic modes of survival. They cannot choose to be anything other than what they are. We inherited two billion years of evolution from them. Dr. Leonard Peikoff claimed that transgendered individuals are irrational and anti-reality, declaring that their whims are superior to nature. (Did he say nature or "Nature"?) Rather than acting contrary to reality, they seem to be acting in accordance with it.)"
    I agree.
    Rand and Peikoff, depending on some not discussed reason, would have some kind of distinction between the scientific 'animals' which would include both humans and non-human 'animals'. It is a kind of 'blank out' in awareness similar to those who use 'pro life' to just mean human life while in the womb and not all life which they proscribe to a trash heap of pro choice.
    Rand and Peikoff both seemed to believe that humans with a reasoning capacity, should be able to apply logical thinking at all times. But that takes a very large amount of individual choice and effort, which, as in animals which have evolved with many abilities, should remain, for most humans, learned and automatic for safety, social, and reproductive purposes so that life can get on with living.
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  • Posted by davidmcnab 8 years, 11 months ago
    Society has evolved in leaps and bounds with its acceptance and integration of cis-gendered homosexual people. In fact -- for those who are not addicted to one of the 3 Desert Cults -- being gay has now become utterly mundane, as has having a "same sex partner".

    I'm ok with acceptance and integration of TG people. I'm aware of research showing the brains of TG people have a structure far more consistent with the opposite sex, so sadly such people are born with a cruel and crippling contradiction which they address with very difficult measures.

    But what I'm NOT ok about is anyone who criticises me for choosing to embrace the masculinity I was born with, or for choosing to be with a woman who was born female and embraces her femininity. I know that a lot of "masculinity" and "femininity" is culturally programmed. But a lot of is is NOT. The differing hormone levels, the differing X vs Y chromosome, form a primal foundation stone of who we are. To be objectivist, we must honour this in ourselves and each other.

    The jury is still out on whether the "true transgender" scenario of a person in a XY-chromosome body with masculine features but the brain structure of a woman, or vice versa, is natural, or a product of serious medical disorder, demands a lot more research.
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  • Posted by starznbarz 8 years, 11 months ago
    Depriving the privacy rights of a vast majority to favor a minuscule of a percentage of people is no different than removing the health care choices of tens of millions to give away what was already available to a couple million that already are given all they ask for - at the expense of those that earn their way. It is about control and power - in short, communism. It is that simple.
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    • Posted by $ 8 years, 10 months ago
      No one is depriving you of your right to privacy. Your statement rambled as you attempted to draw a wider inference that (I believe) is not valid. Let me just address your premise: "Depriving the privacy rights of a vast majority to favor a minuscule of a percentage of people ..." No one wants to come into your home and use your bathroom.

      Moreover, when you go into a public space, you give up a lot of privacy rights. For example, if you have a conversation in a restaurant, you cannot complain that being overheard, your privacy rights were violated. So, too, with a public restroom. The owners of the property set the terms, and in most cases, you agree to share the facilities.

      In the case of tax-based controllers who act as "owners" the issues are muddied. But we do have "publicly-owned" parks, roads, stadiums, etc. The highway department sets the rules for the rest stops. We live with that. But, again, no one is violating your privacy rights unless they want to come into the stall or stand at the urinal with you.

      As for the majority-minority problem, you are on thin ice. My grandparents came from an empire that was an "apostolic monarchy." Going to church was a civic responsibility. AFIK, in Switzerland, the local governments still collect taxes for the local churches. Only a few object...

      (It took me a minute to figure out "stars and bars." I was thinking of generals and lieutenants.... Old times not forgotten is a whole other issue. Stay tuned...)
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      • Posted by starznbarz 8 years, 10 months ago
        I should have begun with "as it pertains to public schools..." My issue, as I rambled into the comparison of O/care to the bathroom edict, is based on the decree of a single person that is presented as solving a problem that does not exist simply to gain power and control over the vast majority that realize there is no problem, yet are coerced into paying for and abiding by the decree at the threat of punishment - my idea of the definition of communism. As to Starznbarz, it began more than 30 years ago as a registered kennel name based on a foundation critters titled namesake, Hope that clears the pond a little.
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