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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I do not set pragmatism as a principle. I use it as a tool, in situations when tools I trust more don't answer the question of what to do. Sometimes you have to guess, both about other leaders' intentions and about whether their claims of moral purity, injury, etc. are true. And sometimes you need an ally badly enough that you have to look the other way about his immoral actions elsewhere.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Objectivist as far as I know is a philosophical method more than a political party or social status.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am not sure how to address the question other than to point out you set pragmatism as a principle, then say principles don't give a clear answer.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I disagree that communism complies with the NAP. The Communist Manifesto explicitly states that overthrow of existing bourgeoisie is necessary to achieve communism, in theory. Communism necessarily follows the path from altruism to collectivism to force.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I just realized you are using LP to mean Leonard P and I am using it to mean Libertarian Party. No wonder I got confused a bit.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Many take issue with the Libertarians, the Big Government Party, for example. But that does not bear upon the question I posed in the first place.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The principle of NAP goes back some 2,000 years---it was not original with her. Your statement about the libertarians "tying capitalism to the whim-worshipping subjectivism and chaos of anarchy" does not comport with libertarains actually say as distinct from what Binswaner says they say. This is exactly the straw man type of argument I mentioned in the opening.

    To “put up a straw man” is to intentionally caricature a person’s argument with the aim of attacking the caricature rather than the actual argument. Misrepresenting, misquoting, misconstruing, and oversimplifying an opponent’s position are all means by which one can commit this fallacy. The straw man argument is usually more absurd than the actual argument, making it an easier target to attack. It may also lure the other person toward defending the more ridiculous argument rather than their original one.

    Almossawi, Ali. An Illustrated Book of Bad Arguments (Kindle Locations 133-137). The Experiment. Kindle Edition.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I read Peikoff as also saying that anyone who doesn't agree with every word of The Ominous Parallels isn't an Objectivist.
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  • Posted by $ allosaur 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I like Stossel but missed those debates.
    You reinforce my opinion of Johnson as a loser, though.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    On the other hand that was the source with the BS unsubstantiated story about Rand and the immigration service. After carefully following the leads provided both ended up with articles by two clueless reporters and still no facts nor evidence. At the time I iwas shocked to find out that was the Libertarians main publication.

    At his point I approach that publication in the same manner as I do the Guardian. All of that aside while Moral Philosophy could give rise to a 'religion' Objectivism is not a system religious nor secular nor commercial but a way to validate or invalidate one's beliefs or the beliefs that have been offered to them. But only for the stronger minded more inclined to think and reason and test and examine. Therefore when some in Congress decided to continue this economic farce and looked at Keynes great road block (only until you can't pay the interest) they and probably objectively asked. Is there a way around Keynes and if tested will it work. It did in 1993 the gas crisis the rest was borrowed from Carlos Marighella and his friends and it emerged full blown as the 'Great Recession of 2008. Like alll objective notions it has to be tested continuously and the use examined ethically. The Congress failed in that requirement and became common garden variety subjectivists aanother world for failures. They screwed up the Second Law and skipped the third one. On that basis one can safely say it's impossible to be a ' ' and an objectivist. Trouble is we gotta pay for their failures but that's a failure ini personal ethics on choosing who to vote for. Given the signs. I wouldn't count on the Libertairans unless they truly do use objectivism - but....it is possible
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not all of us here are Objectivists. I'm close to being one, but the sort of dogmatic people Esceptico mentioned (to whom the only way to be an Objectivist is to agree with them about every detail of philosophy) have made me unwilling to wear the label. They claim to own it, and maybe they do. I'm not going to fight them for it.

    For what it's worth, I wouldn't wear the label "libertarian" either, if most people felt it were as narrowly defined as kdechaine seems to believe it is. Perhaps being a capital-L Libertarian is that narrowly defined.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I would never have found out about the Atlas Shrugged movies or Galt's Gulch Online, if it were not for an advertisement through Reason.
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That view is out there. But I would put foreign policy at the top of the list of issues that not all libertarians agree about. I'm not sure if all Objectivists agree about it either.

    I take a fairly pragmatic view on foreign policy; I think a country has to. Which of course will get me flamed because "pragmatism isn't objectivist", but how else do you decide when you don't know everything and your principles don't always give a clear answer either?
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    This from Rand:
    For the record, I shall repeat what I have said many times before: I do not join or endorse any political group or movement. More specifically, I disapprove of, disagree with, and have no connection with, the latest aberration of some conservatives, the so-called “hippies of the right,” who attempt to snare the younger or more careless ones of my readers by claiming simultanteously to be followers of my philosophy and advocates of anarchism. Anyone offering such a combination confesses his inability to understand either. Anarchism is the most irrational, anti-intellectual notion ever spun by the concrete-bound, context-dropping, whim-worshiping fringe of the collectivist movement, where it properly belongs.
    I would +1 again if I could.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago
    This from Binswanger:
    The “libertarians” . . . plagiarize Ayn Rand’s principle that no man may initiate the use of physical force, and treat it as a mystically revealed, out-of-context absolute . . . .

    In the philosophical battle for a free society, the one crucial connection to be upheld is that between capitalism and reason. The religious conservatives are seeking to tie capitalism to mysticism; the “libertarians” are tying capitalism to the whim-worshipping subjectivism and chaos of anarchy. To cooperate with either group is to betray capitalism, reason, and one’s own future.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    If you want to be an Obj.ist, you cannot avoid the label: you have to hold all fundamental principles.
    And Libertarianism does not do that, this you can't be both.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago
    I am far too confused at this point as to how several Gulch members find Rand so unpalatable. Can someone please explain what the purpose of this conversation is? What's the purpose of taking the oath and becoming an Objectivist only to denigrate the source? Do you want Galt's Gulch to be Libertarian Gulch? That site is called http://reason.com.
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