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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


All Comments


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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    All invading armies are there to "liberate." Ask them. But that was not issue. The issue was bombing civilians, non-combatants. People who may oppose the regime in power.
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    libertarians do not grow on objectivist roots. they are as incompatible as objectivism and communism
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  • Posted by paris1 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, I'm a small "l" libertarian with Objectivist roots!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I'm having difficulty tracing the little dotted lines. You are quite correct see if the substitute serves your comment more accurately.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Only if you fail as an independent thinking and reasoning individual and the principles three of them all point in support of independent thinking and reasoning. prof6's comment corrected I had to do an ignore to clean up the dots in this case.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Cult implies more than one. Objectivism is a system for individuals. So that makes me a cult of one? No problem I don't serve coolaid.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I am sensing resentment of Rand, but some admiration of Objectivism. It's certainly possible to appreciate statements and concepts of an individual while feeling distaste or even disgust for their voice, appearance, or clothing. But I think Rand was quite the voice of reason. I also think she worked extremely hard to develop a coherent, unified philosophical theory derived from basic observations about the world. So while there may be some discord among Objectivists as to certain particulars, I think you would be hard pressed to find Peikoff, Binswanger, or even Bernstein differing as significantly in their opinions on Objectivism as in supporting Libertarianism as a movement without certain qualifications.

    Finally, I am concerned that your statement represents a double standard. Is it not possible that some libertarians consider objectivists as non-Libertarian due to their support of wars against Saudi and Iran?
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  • Posted by paris1 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Jesus Christ! The purpose of this post is to "question" the dogmatic "statement" you and other slavish Objectivists hold so near and dear. And the "authorities" you reference are three of the worst kind of sycophants that have held the movement hostage since Rand's death over three decades ago. Give me a break!
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  • Posted by craigerb 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What ever happened to the Ombudsman movement? [The best (only good?) idea to come out of the Sixties upheaval.]
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  • Posted by Herb7734 8 years, 9 months ago
    I started calling myself a Randoid, and a bit later an Objectivist. That was 58 years ago (I'm older than dirt). Over that time I have met some of what might be called the founding fathers of Rand's philosophy and many advocates. Many are well schooled in Objectivism, many are a good deal smarter than I am, and I learn from them. Some learn from me. But as in any philosophy, or set of rules of any kind there are those who vary from text. Who question tenets. Or who are outright masqueraders. This is true with Objectivism, it is also true with Libertarianism. On occasion, some of those calling themselves Objectivists or Libertarian who do not truly deserve the appellation come to prominence and make erroneous statement which are taken to represent what all the others of who they say they represent. Hence, the twists and turns get garbled and misrepresent, even in some cases, the simplest of premises.
    Objectivism and Libertarianism are compatible. Not in every minute instance, but overall, I see no reason why one cannot claim to be both. If a difference looms large, since the major premises are compatible, there is no reason why they cannot be integrated.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago
    I am confused by a few of points in your statement. The first being "[...] to achieve political or social goals". What of economic goals?

    Second, if a Libertarian is one who subscribes to NAP, then what is the purpose of the LP Platform? Is the NAP the basis of all LP positions? If so, how do you reconcile the conflicting points of view between Libertarian and Objectivist positions on foreign policy and national borders, for example?

    Also curious why you think Rand was against Libertarians?
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Harry Browne's book was good. Why waste time trying to change other people. Just maneuver around them as best you can to further your own life.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Johnson is better than the other candidates, although he would never be elected after that terrible performance on Anderson Cooper's town hall. Just his half hearted stand on the war on drugs was pretty pathetic. I could have taken a more consistent stand and withstood that woman's questioning by simply saying that the existing war on drugs was already in place when her son died of an overdose.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago
    libertarians are better than repubs or democrats for sure. Libertarians are as a group philosophically inconsistent and challenged (look just at Johnson's stand on the legality of drugs- marijuana is ok, but heroin is not ok)
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  • Posted by wiggys 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    you obviously have not either read Miss Rand or simply do not understand her.
    objectivists are objectivists and libertarians are not objectivists! there may very well be some overlap but it is for the most part insignificant. for a full explanation ask Harry Binswanger, Peter Schwartz or Leonard Peikoff.
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  • Posted by helidrvr 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Experience (think Detroit) shows that private security services competing for market share provide far better results and do so without ever initiating aggression.
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  • Posted by $ prof611 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I was being sarcastic! Objectivism IS a consistent set of principles, and not dependent on the whims of Ms Rand.
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  • Posted by Hot_Black_Desiato 8 years, 9 months ago
    "I will not say that all Democrats are horse thieves, but it would seem that all horse thieves are Democrats." Roosevelt: "THE LION AND
    THE FOX " A Harvest Book HARCOURT, BRACE & WORLD, INC. New York .

    So does this by extension imply that an Objectivist has some litmus test to call themselves an Objectivist?

    Can one be Libertarian and Objectivist? Religious and Objectivist, must all Objectivists conform to atheism and the view of "some" objectivists?

    If one states that to be Objectivist you cannot be Libertarian, Religious, must be an atheist, you are in essence denying anothers FREEDOM to choose and believe based on THEIR personal reasoning the very thing that the Objectivist claims to extol. Freedom of Choice, Free Will.
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I thought you might object to her quote on that ground. But frankly I agreed with her at the time, and I agree today. I further maintain we need not wait for a side that have sworn a blood oath against us, to develop weapons of mass destruction with a range that would let them launch from "home base."
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  • Posted by Temlakos 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I meant, "in the event the United States decided to invade and liberate." Then they wouldn't have to go anywhere.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 9 months ago
    They are not. The problem with 'official' Objectivism is that it is dogmatic to the point of absurdity. David Kelley was ostracized by Leonard because Kelley said there might be more that fits the Objectivism umbrella then just what Rand had specifically articulated. While Rand said we should use our minds and reason what is true or not, LP has interpreted that to mean 'so long as we agree with everything she said.' Whenever someone wants to expand or expound upon Objectivism, he will be deemed unworthy to call himself and Objectivist.

    I stopped worrying about that a long time ago - I think what I think and know what I know and that suits me just fine. No one can tell me I can't subscribe to Galt's Oath, whether he thinks I'm 'good' enough to be an Objectivist or not.

    Both Objectivism and Libertarianism have adherents that I prefer not to associate with, but that doesn't mean there is not some truth in both.
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