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Objectivists cannot be Libertarians?

Posted by Esceptico 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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I have been told both politely and impolitely by fellow Objectivists that one cannot be both an Objectivist and a Libertarian. I have heard this even here in the Gulch. I profess to being both.

Rand went on rants, literally, against Libertarians. Do not join, she says, “‘libertarian’” hippies, who subordinate reason to whims, and substitute anarchism for capitalism.”[“Ayn Rand Letter,” Vol 1, No. 7, page 3, Jan. 3, 1972.] It does not take one deeply schooled in argument to recognize the ad hominem attacks in this one sentence, but the significant point is she set up a straw man in that Libertarians as such do not subordinate reason to whims and are not anarchists. Yes, there are some Libertarians who do and are one or both of these things, but are some Objectivists.

A Libertarian is simply a person who subscribes to the Non-Agression Principle (NAP). Nothing more, nothing less. So long as a person agreed with the NAP, one could be a communist or an anarchist. Libertarians are united only by the NAP and not by any other unifying principles or outlook on life. To be a member of the LP there is one requirement and only one: you must agree to the NAP. [https://www.lp.org/membership July 11, 2016.]

Picking up the theme from Rand, Ayn Rand Institute “Distinguished Fellow” (whatever that is) Peter Schwartz went so far as to say Objectivists should not be “trafficking with Libertarians.” [“On Moral Sanctions,” by Peter Schwartz, May 18, 1989.] This sounds similar to me to a Jehovah’s Witness, or any other cult, proclamation prohibiting contact with the outside world. And, indeed, several Objectivists have shunned me ever since I said I disagreed with them. If I had been a JW, then I would be “disestablished.” The point is the same: disagree with the dogma and you are out of the club.

During 1985 Schwartz wrote a series of articles in his “Intellectual Activist” publication. These are published, according to the introduction, in a condensed version as Chapter 31 in the book “The Voice of Reason.” Schwartz again sets up the Libertarian as a straw man and then sets about attacking the straw man. I am not going to detail his laboriously stated errors and ad hominem attacks because it is not relevant to my question below.

Apparently the subject is still something of interest to ARI. Schwartz lists, among his Talks and Lectures credits, “Analyzing Libertarianism: A Case Study in Thinking in Principles.” [https://ari.aynrand.org/experts/peter.... July 11, 2016] I could not access this, but I image it is more of the same diatribe he previously presented. I say this because as recently as July 2, 2016, [https://ari.aynrand.org/blog/2016/07/.... July 11, 2016.] ARI touted a discussion to be streamed the following day on the subject. I missed that.

Here is the problem for me. A principle of Objectivism is the NAP. Restated in the words of Rand: “… no man may initiate—do you hear me? No man may start—the use of physical force against others.”

The only principle required of Libertarians is: “To validate my membership, I certify that I oppose the initiation of force to achieve political or social goals.”

Over the decades, every time an Objectivist tells me I must choose between being an Objectivist and a Libertarian, I point out the above and ask a question. To date I have not received even the courtesy of an answer.

I ask: How are these two principles mutually exclusive?


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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "Friends" indeed. They sound like the type of "principled" people that would straighten a painting during a fire or earthquake, or even better, scold someone for putting their tray table down during a plane crash.
    There are PROBLEMs and problems. The differences between objectivists and libertarians (if they are meaningful) can be worked out 50 years from now (I'll be dead) when we are bathing in productivity and wealth after, and only IF, they work together to fix the problems caused by socialists, progressives and totalitarians.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, Johnson needs work on his presentation skills. One of the big problems with the process of national elections is that the emphasis is on who is better looking, taller, and can shout the loudest, instead of who makes the most rational arguments and has a record of success without looting.
    The media and the debate organizers want the debates to be just another reality show and the result is ignorant savages like Clinton, Bush, Obama, Clinton, and Trump. Put them all in a leaky rubber boat and let the sharks eat the lot.
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  • Posted by rbroberg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, I think that is correct, though, I am thinking of Binswanger, Bernstein, Biddle, and Brook as a few Objectivists who could potentially be seen as "official" in one sense or another.
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  • Posted by freedomforall 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Actually the Libertarian Party (nationally) has not done what you allege in any past election (that I recall.) (Perhaps I misunderstand what you mean by that statement. Details?) Their problem in getting votes has arguably been that they stuck to their principles of constitutional government, individual liberty, non aggression, and ethics, but the media just portayed the party as looney and the ignorant public did not question that statist biased view.
    Now what you say may be true of the liberals who pretend that they are libertarians and say they are libertarian. I have met quite a few of those ignoramuses who hate to pay the taxes that liberals impose but still want the liberal programs.
    I agree that the current candidates (especially Weld the Wicked) are a compromise on libertarian principles.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It would be academic except I have had Objectivist "friends" who will no longer talk to me claiming I am immoral because I am a libertarian.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The ideas of Libertarianism with the delivery of Trump would make an interesting presentation. That way, the idea of unwinding cronyism with better free market ideas could really go somewhere. Maybe next election.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    As I wrote below, a charismatic spokesman on various national TV shows explaining the LP position. John McAfee would have been ideal, I think, because he already has a nationally known name, he explains the principles well, and has the humph to make an interview with him interesting. I think even Johnson falls asleep when he is interviewed, and, as a result, he is not invited often.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 8 years, 9 months ago
    When I speak to libertarians, I find I agree with most of what they say. This is not true of democrats or republicans.

    If there is an argument that objectivists can not be libertarians, it is acedemic, and dividing a grain of rice rather than killing a pig for dinner. We both have much bigger enemies to liberty and economic freedom !
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I agree. The Big Government Party will win, but it would have been nice to have a charismatic spokesman on various national TV shows explaining the LP position. John McAfee would have been ideal, I think, because he already has a nationally known name, he explains the principles well, and has the humph to make an interview with him interesting. I think even Johnson falls asleep when he is interviewed, and, as a result, he is not invited often.
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  • Posted by term2 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Its a shame, cause Johnson has a shot at promoting real Libertarianism and gathering support- not for this election but maybe the next one
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Say what? I quoted from the LP website. I dare say I think you expand what libertarians are to build the straw man I mentioned, and then the burn the straw man.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Exactly, and that is my point when true-beliver Objectivists tell me I cannot be both. I am both and the use of Venn diagrams set it out clearly.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    One of the problems I see with the Libertarian Party is that it tries so hard to be relevant (by adopting any position that it thinks will help it win) that it winds up without principles - just like the D's and R's :-(

    Selecting these two Republican ex-Governors as candidates is but another compromise.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In theory, communism can comply with the NAP. Of course they would all starve to death and Rand was correct when she says evil will collapse upon itself if we just leave it alone. But in reality, all of the collectivist ideas require the use of force, and that does violate NAP.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Could be she was thinking of Rothbard. She did not like anyone who held any ideas which might compete with her.

    I have been part of the libertarian movement since its founding, and before Johnson I did not see much change. Johnson, though, either through ignorance or lack of understanding has changed the chanel.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 8 years, 9 months ago
    You mis-defined Libertarian; it is certainly much more than being pro-NAP. E.g. Lib.ism is not founded on Obj.ist morality; foreign policy is significantly different. (There is plenty in the literature defining differences.)
    Obj.ism is a complete philosophy; Lib.ism, like religion, is not a true philosophy.
    An Obj.ist, by definition, upholds all the fundamental tenants of Obj.ism. Thus, one can't be both an Obj.ist and a Lib.ian. This need not be an emotional debate.
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    It is my understanding (based on pronouncements made by LP) that Rand left Objectivism to LP - that her wish was that he be the final arbitrator as to all things dealing with Objectivism. If that is incorrect please let me know???
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well said. Did you know Rand would not take a position on evolution? She was still looking for the missing link. [Ayn Rand Letter, Vol II, No. 17, Mayh 21, 1973, page 5]
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  • Posted by $ TomB666 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I did a bad job of editing my words :-(
    I was trying to edit it to say: While Rand said we should use our minds and reason, LP has interpreted that to mean 'so long as we agree ...
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