The proper role of the state and limiting state power

Posted by scottburch 8 years, 9 months ago to Philosophy
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If we say that the proper role of the state is protection of the individual and property, then it becomes necessary for the state to have the ability to use force against those who use force against individuals.

I always get asked the question, "given that people will take advantage of power, how do we then keep the state from becoming corrupt and taking property and liberty from the individual?" Mostly I am asked this by statists who want a large powerful state believing that the state is all good if it was not for those evil "corporations". I believe that this is the reason why it is not possible to have a "perfect" state. The solution of the founders of the US was to say that the people collectively should have the means to use force to eliminate such a government.

However, as we are probably all well aware. Most of the people have been tricked into believing that the people using force to remove the government is crazy and want to take away the people's ability to use force to ensure their liberty.

I guess the question is, who decides when a government has overstepped it's bounds and needs to be removed, with force if necessary, in an individual centered society.

I am sure this is a common thought, but I would like to hear opinions, because I have no answer to this question. The answer to go Galt and allow the rest of society to do what it wants does not work when others believe they have the right to use force against you to make you conform to their will. This turns all free thinking individuals into slaves to the collective.

UPDATE
Thank you to everyone for your responses. This has been helpful.

The responses did solidify something for me. Keeping control local is key to a free society. There is a law in the US that says the military can not be used against the people, however, they just called the federal guns "federal police" and sent them against the people. "A rose by any other name..." If we started over, we would make it clear that local communities police themselves.

I live in Canada and I believe there is a version of this. Small communities who don't have the means to train their own police can pull from a pool of federally trained police (RCMP). The community pays and houses them, and can be replaced at any time by someone else in the pool because they are answerable to the community. I rarely ever see the local police, even in very small towns, but when I have talked to them, they are courteous and know what is going on in the community.

I am new to the community here, and have already gained value, so, of course, I have signed up as a producer.


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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The point is (1) to reduce the us/them mentality in both directions, between the police and the neighborhood residents, and (2) to recreate the kind of spontaneous order (maybe civic responsibility is a better term) found in traditional small towns. Of course this could also lead to the opposite extreme, where the local cops let local gangs misbehave -- but if that happens I can always move to a better neighborhood.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    So, a bit of direct feedback on police, that is not such a bad suggestion. My only concern, in our current society, the media has decided to frequently wrongly make police the enemy ala Michael Brown and many others.

    Wouldn't this kind of environment make the feedback incorrect? Or, is it because people would get to know the police that these cases would not be anything in the first place?
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  • Posted by $ jdg 8 years, 9 months ago
    I would decentralize police to the level of small neighborhoods (say 1,500 population) and have them report to town meetings. Any alleged misconduct would be judged by the town meeting, completely in public, which would then have the power to demote or fire them.

    This does not imply that I would want direct democratic rule on topics other than the behavior of police.
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  • Posted by $ MichaelAarethun 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not only upholding the proactive stuff AJ mentioned but being aware of the negatives such as Presidents not being taken to task for such phrases as, "find me a way around the Constitution," "that hasn't been visited by the Courts yet," " it was approved' or 'it was allowed,' 'the draft doesn't exist," "balanced budget with a surplus." or why Republicans when they were a separate party had to foillow the War Powers Act and Democrats/Socialists have never done so, or 'money is free speech,"

    To be in compliance doesn't require some act not being mentioned. It has to be specifically mentioned and given approval.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago
    One thought that I have had consistently is that if we are to live in a society where the majority wins, we should at least make it a majority of producers. Too many moochers and looters say what happens in our society. It would be good to limit the voting to people with a real stake in the outcome. Only producers vote.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    again, 10th amendment. Fedgov in the US has no legitimate authority outside of the authority given to it by the State (who receives its authority directly from the people). Once the fedgov is made to heel, settle into its proper role by downsizing in every conceivable way, the States will have the authority they are supposed to have; The problems would fix themselves.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    The "all politics is local". That works except, as you know, local governments do not have power over the guns of the larger organizations. However, I would agree in a more perfect society. The question was how to keep that perfect society.
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  • Posted by 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thanks for the response. While I did make mention of the US, I was speaking more generally, sorry if I was not clear enough.
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 8 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That moves the problem down one level, but does not solve it. State and local governments can be as overreaching and corrupt as the Federal government. There is no perfect defense against tyranny, but procedures and institutions exist that are capable of slowing down or reversing the growth of improper government control. Chief among them, to my mind, are separation of powers and near-total transparency at all levels of government.
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  • Posted by $ AJAshinoff 8 years, 9 months ago
    10th Amendment. Return to the Constitution. That takes care of federal encroachment, the bloated size of the federal government, federal spending, immigration, etc..

    Tenth Amendment - Reserved Powers. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
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