Nothing is "certain" when discussing "infinity"
Posted by Zero 10 years, 10 months ago to Philosophy
(This post is an obvious response to SOLVER's post a couple of days ago. But as that thread was getting a kinda fat, I decided to post anew rather than reply. Apologies.)
Discussions on "infinity" illustrate what we DON'T understand, not what we do.
Remember ".999... = 1" from Jr. High? The classic example of infinity coalescing into the finite - perhaps the closest we have to an "understandable" discussion of infinity. And yet, though mathematically valid, conceptually it is a nightmare.
I am an OBJ, but if there was ever an example of "A not equaling A", when a thing is both one thing AND another....
Even AR's genius (and Aristotle's) cannot encompass that which cannot be understood.
We exist within our framework. We cannot perceive - nor conceive - beyond it.
Science readily accepts this limitation. (The center of black holes and "time before the Big Bang" are just two examples.)
As for the "certainty" of parallel existence in an "infinite" universe, consider this:
Take a simple helium balloon. You could fill any finite universe with just the permutations of this one balloon - repeated over and over again - each exactly the same - except one atom (of zillions) is moving in a almost imperceptibly different direction.
And that's just one balloon.
Change the balloon to the Observable Universe.
Now your Infinite Universe MUST contain countless OU's each exactly the same as the others except one atom is moving at the slightest variance. Now take that infinitude and copy it over again except now TWO atoms are slightly different. And again with 3 atoms - and so on, and so on, and so on....
And that's just our OBSERVABLE universe - that spherical volume of the Universe bounded by a 13.8 billion light-year radius with Earth at the center. But since the discovery of Inflation there is reason to believe the actual Universe is larger than the OU. You'd have to "infinitely" duplicate this Meta-Universe ad-infinitum each with only one atom in the slightest variance. Then two atoms, then three...;
And, of course, if the Meta-Universe is truly infinite how can you duplicate it at all? How can you have an infinite number of infinite universes, each exactly the same as the other except some atom(s).
Come on now. Seriously. This is just mental masturbation. We may as well be stoners around a campfire.
Don't speak to me of "certainty" as regards Infinity.
This is truly unknown and unknowable.
But don't despair, perhaps it will not always be so.
Three million years ago, "Lucy" possessed the greatest mind on earth but she could never have been taught Chaos Theory.
What will our descendants understand, three million years from now, that we cannot fathom now?
Discussions on "infinity" illustrate what we DON'T understand, not what we do.
Remember ".999... = 1" from Jr. High? The classic example of infinity coalescing into the finite - perhaps the closest we have to an "understandable" discussion of infinity. And yet, though mathematically valid, conceptually it is a nightmare.
I am an OBJ, but if there was ever an example of "A not equaling A", when a thing is both one thing AND another....
Even AR's genius (and Aristotle's) cannot encompass that which cannot be understood.
We exist within our framework. We cannot perceive - nor conceive - beyond it.
Science readily accepts this limitation. (The center of black holes and "time before the Big Bang" are just two examples.)
As for the "certainty" of parallel existence in an "infinite" universe, consider this:
Take a simple helium balloon. You could fill any finite universe with just the permutations of this one balloon - repeated over and over again - each exactly the same - except one atom (of zillions) is moving in a almost imperceptibly different direction.
And that's just one balloon.
Change the balloon to the Observable Universe.
Now your Infinite Universe MUST contain countless OU's each exactly the same as the others except one atom is moving at the slightest variance. Now take that infinitude and copy it over again except now TWO atoms are slightly different. And again with 3 atoms - and so on, and so on, and so on....
And that's just our OBSERVABLE universe - that spherical volume of the Universe bounded by a 13.8 billion light-year radius with Earth at the center. But since the discovery of Inflation there is reason to believe the actual Universe is larger than the OU. You'd have to "infinitely" duplicate this Meta-Universe ad-infinitum each with only one atom in the slightest variance. Then two atoms, then three...;
And, of course, if the Meta-Universe is truly infinite how can you duplicate it at all? How can you have an infinite number of infinite universes, each exactly the same as the other except some atom(s).
Come on now. Seriously. This is just mental masturbation. We may as well be stoners around a campfire.
Don't speak to me of "certainty" as regards Infinity.
This is truly unknown and unknowable.
But don't despair, perhaps it will not always be so.
Three million years ago, "Lucy" possessed the greatest mind on earth but she could never have been taught Chaos Theory.
What will our descendants understand, three million years from now, that we cannot fathom now?
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Now, if you want to accept that the universe is finite, then we can have a discussion.
You stand on a spot. In front of you see a line that goes on forever. Is the line infinite?
You turn around and discover the same line ends right at the spot you are standing on. Is the line infinite?
If the line did go on forever both ways, is the line infinite? If it is, would that also make the universe the line is in infinite?