Agreed but I am ok with it being only one parent being a citizen.

Service requirement? No way.

Natural rights?

Define please.

Also understand having a "natural right" initially does not mean you keep it. Without some sort of society and structure you are back to "might makes right"

Government does almost nothing well, in fact it does nearly everything poorly at best. Most of the stuff it does do, many people (me and I think most here) do not want it doing at all. But the problem is human nature.

We are all amoral animals with a thin veneer of civilized behavior layered on top. Without agreed upon rules of behavior, also known as law, we revert to chaos quickly.

For examples look to most of Africa. If that is too third world for you, look at the ugly parts of the inner cities here, or on a slightly larger scale most of Detroit.

People will survive without laws but it will be ugly indeed. In all honesty most won't have the backbone, equipment, or ability to survive when society collapses. Nor will the majority be willing to pay the butchers bill required to survive.

Government, as feckless, incompetent, and evil in result as it tends to be, is still better than the mobs we would have without it. At least for now, if it sinks a whole lot further my attitude may change.

If we had an Atlantis to go to that would be one thing, but right now I don't see that in the cards.

When it collapses, I will do my utmost for myself and my family, everyone else will have to do the same.

How big a butchers bill will you be willing to pay?

It won't matter how peaceful we keep it--if we won't break the peace, then goon squads will force the issue or more likely, instigators will be on-scene to make it happen... and the media will be complicit. I saw one of the early Tea Party rallies, both in person and on the news later that night. The mediots interviewed the ONE attendee in a costume, remarked on how few folks were there, and took all their shots from a viewpoint showing the fewest possible in a crowd. In reality, there were thousands, peaceful, and not in costume. Maybe it's time to boycott the mainstream media. Without their "help", we might have a chance.

no kidding. I'm thoroughly against anchor babies. However making some type of state oriented service as a requirement for citizenship as XenoRoy has stated is wrong on a variety of levels. A birth between two citizens yield a natural citizen, nothing more required. IMO

*Pulls up fire-and-spear-resistant shield*

Fred's pretty much right on this one.. Don't let your joy at seeing government actions openly thwarted make you lose sign of the essential points.

"But they use government services!" It is the system of services that is immoral; many "legal Americans" do the same thing. They should all be tarred with the same brush and the system should be abolished.

"But they don't pay taxes!" I wouldn't either, if they didn't make me. How many here would? How many would pay a minimal amount, not the 75% many of us are hit up for?

"But they come here without following proper legal procedure!" Any of us would and should rise up in fury if some Government goon told us where we could go and where we could not go. Why should some people have the right to come and go where and when they wish, while others do not?

"They might be criminals!" and so might the guy sitting next to you in first class on the plane from Europe. Americans believe in innocent until proven guilty. It doesn't just apply to some people, it applies.

Human beings have rights due to natural law and our essential humanity. Americans are fortunate to live in a country that has a Bill of Rights which protects our natural rights. Just because other people do not live in such a country does not mean they don't have the same rights.The Bill of Rights GUARANTEES them, it does not GIVE them.

and finally, if a law is bad, the moral person has a [natural] right and a [sometimes] duty to flout that law. They are just like any other law we all despise - written to achieve someone's political ends and supported by force. Immigration laws are bad laws, and it is those laws that we should be fighting, not the people who flout them.

I'm going to breakfast. Later, all.
ww

Birth should not qualify you for citizenship if neither of your parents were themselves citizens.

"Anchor Babies" are an ongoing crime.

At who's expense? Is THAT 'just'??

I hate to throw cold water on this. Yet, I think that laws that simply prevent people from coming into this country, because they just happen to born somewhere is simply unjust. Obama may be going against law, but to pick this issue to fight him on seems silly to me. There is still plenty of other things to be criticial with Obama, where more noise needs to be made.

I appreciate Fred's comments because he is trying to initiate a dialogue based on logic and fact. The fact is there are people who want to immigrate to the US for good reasons, and people who want to immigrate for bad reasons. According to the law, the people who flew the planes into the world trade center were legal immigrants (although they ended up overstaying their visas, they entered in a perfectly legal way) Then there is the Mexican down the street who works 3 jobs and is too busy working to cause any trouble. He broke the law by entering illegally yes, but do we really not want people like that here? There are no perfect laws and there is no perfect system, but I think basing an immigration policy on objectivist principles would be a start. The question is, how do you create a system that effectively judges a person on individual merits. I would rather have each immigrant, be required to register by law on entry (if they are not registered and are here they are automatically disqualified), give them a probationary time to prove their worthiness (work or study without government assistance and have no crimes on record) and then decide after a year or two if they are worthy of staying legally. There are still bad and good people that would get through the system but at least we would know who they are and how many there are. I know that the federal government's duty to define our borders and who qualifies as a citizen is essential, however I think that a huge part of what has set the USA apart from other countries is that most of us had ancestors who made the decision one day to risk everything and come here to make something better for themselves. At least that is what happened in my family.

hogwash.

What would you constitute valid service for citizenship? I'm a veteran (so was my father, grandfathers and uncles). My children aren't veterans. Do they not qualify under the terms you present.

Why would birth not qualify for citizenship?

You sound like something out of Starship Troopers by Heinlein. I adamantly disagree.

I do not think living in a country or state is a right. No place on earth has ever treated this as a right. Its a privilege to be earned. The method for earning that privilege is well documented and it should be followed.

So what happens when Obama decides to release the murders and hardcore convicts because they are just misunderstood? Then those people become the leaders of the American Gestapo he is forming? Seems a little off, but its exactly what Hitler did.

Do you stop law breakers or do you embrace them? If you embrace one type of lawbreaker its a slippery slope to the rest of them.

What you are claiming as a right does not exist in our law, our constitution, or frankly...anywhere in the world.

Good luck finding a country that agrees with that "right" but it surely is NOT here.

I prefer the accurate term for them Criminal Alien.

Illegal immigrant is both a contradiction since a legal immigration process is defined, and a nonsense term made up by politicians and news media.

Undocumented migrant is also a specious nonsense term.

I an so glad to see people standing up against this invasion. Because that is what it is. If a person comes here legally using all the proper channels, welcome. Come using force and just sheer masses, well, we are obliged to repulse such lawlessness. And the parents if these kids are responsible for the outcome. Not we the people!

Obama has broken many laws and overstepped himself over a number of issues. Yet, it is this issue that has been getting the most play. I think attacking is Obama on this issue in particular is a bit dubious, because it calls for the enforcement of a law that is unethical.

What is an illegal immigrate? A person who crosses into the US without the permission of the US government. In effect, the law asserts the authority of the government to dicate who has the right to live in this country and who does not. Such an authority is a fundamental violation of person's right to live and work where they want to. As long as that person has commit no other crimes, such a rape, murder, theft, etc.

Yet, so many people are screaming for the government to exercise this authority. At the same time, these people complain about the errosions of thier own liberty. Well, on one hand, they beg for more liberty and on the other hand they ask the government to exercise more control over people lives. Well, which way do they want it?

Me too !

EVERYTHING he does needs to be fought. These children have parents and families that are going to join them..who pays for it and who gets revoted in because of it. It is just another attempt to take over our "once free" country.. among all the other unconstitutional crap he has pulled.

they are, at this point, closest to the drain. Whatever American is still in the hearts of those people have to, at this point, sense something dire coming. Unfortunately the liberalism and multiculturalism they practiced for decades opened their eyes when the noose was tightened around their necks. This is self-inflicted. I wish them luck.

So toss our private property rights and the law? Hell, why have a country? Why have home ownership? Why have cities and towns?

Repelling them as they are being placed in position is exactly what need be done To allow this invites something larger and more in your face. Perhaps those poor huddled mexican masses, the lawless invaders, should be given rooms in my house? eg. We the Living.

He is not alone in his desires to become "El Presidente for Life" or part of the "Supreme Cabinet" of advisors... Don't forget it.

This is the proof of the old saying: "Absolute Power Corrupts... Absolutely."

Big thumbs up to that !!!