AJA: "for 50 + years we provided their defense...

I know sometimes folks accuse me of being a little dense, however...

Please explain to be how the cost of defense in Japan contributed to better and reduced health care?

I'm just not able to make the connection.

Now, the carrier from Faux news: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/06/......

Last I heard helicopters were aircraft. And, it's still a very big boat.

Rob

Oh khalling... Please don't tell me what I think. What gives you that privilege anywhere, particularly here?

Now to address the specific: "why is it you think you have a right to tell others what they can do with their money, time, property and labor?"

I'm advocating no such thing. The union and the corporation (both groups of people) can negotiate. I don't advocate where it comes out.\

Rob

Rozar: "Exactly, your expounding that their system is better because it helps more people."

Not only better health care but less expensive.

BTW, Doctors are ALREADY forced to work for below what there might be a "market value" for their services. Insurance companies set rates so the fat cats can have their limos. AND the stockholders, my my, the stockholders.

And when an insurance companies' portfolio slumps up go the rates.

And look at how the insurance companies "protect" doctors from mal practice! If we had universal health care those costs would be taken out of the hands of fat cat insurance companies and put directly into medical care. If a doctor has truly screwed up an investigation should be held to determine the future of prospects.

BTW, if the patient dies should the doctor be paid? It certainly is a failure as I see it if they are charging for it.

Rob

Rozar says: "You have no right to medicine, housing or jobs or anything else."

Oh (giggle giggle) it's so much fun using right wing arguments...

Our Declaration of Independence says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Now, if one follows the "logic" of anti abortion folks... Well, you get the idea.

But also, people die without health care. The best example is diabetes where with early treatment folks can live a long and productive life. Without treatment parts start to get cut off and people go blind.

Besides, it's generally far more economical to treat things early.

So, even though I imagine most folks around here would be pro-choice in the abortion issue as they are in so many other issues, I think it's time to consider: How can anyone claim to be "pro-life" and at the same time deny health care to another?

And for the rest of your "argument" that folks aren't "entitled...."

Consider that as a Nation we have built an excellent road system available to anyone rich or poor. Is that "socialism" or is simply making things easier for the worker to get to the job?

Housing... A rare thing I agree with Joe Arpaio on is to use of tents and peanut and butter.

And, a final note on health care...

We have a wide variety of folks at work, some of who take the bus to work. Folks with TB can spread it, particularly after symptoms develop. However, without health care these folks with a horrible contagious disease continue to spread it because they don't get medical care early. If they happen to sit next to one of the folks at my workplace to takes the bus, and then I sit next to them at lunch... I'm optimistic that you can see it's in both your and my interest to see that everyone stays healthy.

Rob

So, do we operate in the grey with common sense, or do we go the extremist way?

Rob

Hi AJA,

You post: "Perhaps it has something to do with decades where Japan didn't have to pay for a military?"

Was the news about Japan's new aircraft carrier wrong this week? Hmmmm, looks pretty real to me.

Not really. Are you trying to relate the cost of their military to the cost of medical care? Seems like apples and oranges to me.

The cost per person is less in Japan.

MOF, we are on par with Cuba, usually around 19 or 20 when it comes to health care based upon longevity and infant birth statistics. Yet, Cuba's cost is far less than ours. Further the "socialized" medical care in the other top industrialized countries (better than America) also cost way less than our care.

Our care has costs driven up by corporations committed to make money for the stockholders and little else.

There are excellent examples of how treatment can be given without extreme costs to patients through the Catholic health care systems and the Shriners. Certainly our military doctors aren't driven by a profit motive.

Rob

Rozar says: "You wouldn't agree with that though right?"

I find that you wouldn't tolerate something you personally disagree with on this forum. Ayn Rand herself was an atheist.

More from Rozar: "When you deal in degrees of right and wrong you lose the ability to distribute justice equally, it becomes subjective."

I do so love black and white extremists! Here we go...

Sure there are most certainly degrees of right and wrong. 10 mph over the speed limit in a school zone or hospital zone is far more dangerous than ten mph over when it's in a 75 mph zone.

Stealing bread because one is hungry is far different than Enron where stealing (enough that some folks killed themselves) wasn't the same thing as stealing bread.

We most certainly need moderation, judgment, and common sense in our legal system.

May I suggest that you watch Dr. Gupta Sunday evening on CNN? The degrees of difference between medical pot and other drugs is extreme (nobody ever overdosed on pot and died), but the penalties are among the most extreme.

Rob

Rocky_Road says: "Eastern Airlines is a prime example of this, and GM (and Dodge) would have done the same, except for the unnatural interference of the Federal government, spending taxpayers money without our authorization."

Ford did OK, even with a boycott from the American Family Association. They have unions the same as GM. It appears that jet setting GM executives were themselves more into personal perks than actual negotiation like Ford was.

More: "P.S. I submit that unions have NO LEGITIMATE PLACE in the government (read: public sector) workplace."

Really... Why is "take it or leave it" treating someone with respect? I do agree that many municipalities are quite fair, but some are also rather bad. I am opposed to double dipping though.

And finally: "The paycheck writers (the taxpayers) have no representation at the bargaining table, and are screwed from the get go. They have no chance of 'winning'.... "

Sadly as long as we have a no compromise balls to the wall screamers like the Tea Party you are absolutely correct. Extremists rarely get the job done.

Rob

From khalling: "We don't have all the info."

Why do I see so many around here blaming the Union with little or no information, yet when it comes to management there isn't ever enough "information?"

More: "When a company is facing bankruptcy and restructuring, it is a time of great turmoil within the organization. The role of the CEO,CFO, CTO, etc. is very stressful and demanding, Often, they no longer have their jobs after the re-structuring. A company will pay a high premium to get the most skilled CEOs at this particular point. I am not saying that corruption never happens, I am providing some objective support for compensation and parachutes."

ROFL... A Golden Parachute for the
pilot and crew as the plane goes into the ground. They get praised for a job well done and everyone else dies.

That's the image I have for management that crashes a company into bankruptcy.

Rob

Yes, do blame the Union. But there is another side, maybe to your surprise. I found this headline but I was unable to access it directly because I'm not a subscriber. This is Dow Jones making the claims. I doubt you would trust Mother Jones.

Any, here is what I found about Hostess...

"Dow Jones Uncovers Alleged Looting At Hostess Amid Talk Of ‘Shared Sacrifice’ By Execs
April 4, 2012
DJ Creditors Say Hostess May Have 'Manipulated' Executive Pay

By Rachel Feintzeig
Of DOW JONES DAILY BANKRUPTCY REVIEW

Rob