Could Galt's Gulch Have Open Borders?

Posted by deBohun 11 years, 7 months ago to Culture
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No free society, let alone a libertarian one, can long survive if it actively welcomes those who would undermine its institution and culture. Such tolerance is the Achilles heel of open societies, and why they all eventually are undermined by nefarious forces, banksters, gangsters, communists, neocons, theocons, etc. Until a method is worked out for preserving freedom while maintaining openness and tolerance for diversity, open-border libertarians are never going to be taken seriously in politics. We are today, exactly in the situation we are in politically and financially, due to the mass importation of communists, anarchists, Trotskyites, Keynesians, Marxists, Maoists, monarchists, neo-feudalists, religious dogmatists, and so forth, as laborers for big business during the industrial revolution. None of these people had any respect nor commitment for the founding classical liberal or Unitarian values of the nation, and they promptly set about remaking America into the fouled up countries they had left behind.


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  • Posted by ObjectiveAnalyst 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Hello minniepuck,
    I couldn't agree more. Our entertainment and the MSM News we are subjected to not only reflects but influences. The culture needs a shock to the system... an infusion of reason.
    Regards,
    O.A.
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  • Posted by 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Any one who thinks the core of our problem lies with Mexicans seeking seasonal work needs to evaluate the possibility that they harbor some subconscious racism. This issue has its roots in Europe, not Latin America and the infection walked off the boats in the minds of legal immigrants.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    We get 22s in sporadically. The other day we got some 5.56 in, a huge box... that was a rarity. Next day we got some .223 in. It just seems to be random what ammo we're sent.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Don't forget Lincoln, Nixon, Johnson, Bush sr and jr, (people sometimes disagree when I point out that the Bushes were progressives, not conservatives. I let them.)
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I blame the invaders. It doesn't take a great deal of intelligence to realize you don't belong in someone else's house. I don't blame my child for leaving the front door unlocked when a burglar steps in. I still shoot the sonofabitch.

    My view of the illegal alien invasion is almost certainly different from everyone here. My experience of it is probably different. All I will say is that I vehemently disagree with the myth perpetrated that the illegal invaders are decent, hardworking folk just trying to survive.

    My solution to that particular problem has always been; as they may be within the jurisdiction of the U.S., they are not UNDER the jurisdiction of the U.S.. Therefore, remove them from the protection of law. If someone commits a crime and can prove the victim was in the country illegally, he gets a pass.
    They will self deport... and quickly.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Shit that was a typo up there... It should say, "Ragnar would have shot him...I think not" Not 'wouldn't". I don't think Ragnar would have shot someone for wandering in the gulch. But I don't think anyone COULD wander into the gulch either. Is this story complete?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    You can't. And they shouldn't. It's purposeful ignorance... They want what they want and have themselves convinced that they deserves whatever they want. (We could dissect that right down to how they were raised...many kids are not told 'no' you can't have that because of a,b,c reason...parents over compensate..etc etc they create monsters...and now they're taking over.) But... my point is they don't take the time or effort or thought process to see if what they want/deserve ADDS UP. They don't follow a line of logic to it's conclusion. They've never been taught to think that way OR they're too lazy OR they don't want to face reality (bingo!). Things don't HAVE to make sense when you're entitled. If somebody else has something it's only 'fair' that they should have equal access to it. Or so they think... no..wait..they DON'T think... correction: Or so they FEEEEEEL. (oh whoa whoa whoa whoa.) Logic has been replaced with emotions. (Oldest socialism trick in the book.)
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Many people now born here have statist attitudes because of the indoctrination from media and schools for nearly a century.

    However, yes, many who are coming here from other countries, particularly illegally, have statist attitudes... why wouldn't they, when they were raised in "authoritarian" societies such as Mexico?
    I use the term "authoritarian" loosely, because in places like Mexico the "authority" might well be a drug lord, or your employer. Bosses and peons.
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How he got there is why Ragnar hadn't already pulled the trigger. They would desperately want to know how he followed Francisco. But, Francisco recognized from his story that this was no looter or moocher, and therefore gave him the opportunity to live and remain.

    I didn't tell the whole thing because it was all in my mind to entertain myself, and I didn't want to fill pages here with it. sorry. :(
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "being principled can actually make you less wealthy, "

    I'm well aware of that, from personal experience.
    However, I'm talking about the modern "lower classes". They aren't, in my experience, by and large, particularly principled.
    An example; in the break room, there's a candy machine with a glitch. If you turn the handle back and forth, you can work yourself some M&Ms or peanuts out of it w/o paying. I've seen many different people do it many different times. Not one recognized that he was guilty of repeated petty theft. Forget the legal aspect of it.

    About the time the protesters were demanding $15/hour at McDonald's, a co-worker was complaining that that's what he should be getting (I've stated elsewhere where I work, I don't want to give them too much opportunity to notice and fire me). He's doing the same job he's done for over 5 years, and he thinks that alone entitles him to more money *above the regular raises he's received each year*.

    He's a nice guy, and fairly intelligent, too, but I argued with him and could not get through to him the connection between production and profit.

    People I overhear talking in fast food places, at the store, co-workers... the vast majority seem clueless about value-for-value. Maybe some of them, maybe all of them, are rich as Midas... but I wouldn't bet on it.

    My thought is that people who don't "get" value for value tend to stay poor because they don't have the... philosophical tools, for want of a better term, to create wealth for themselves.

    Seriously, I believe there is a "class" that's been developed in the U.S. over the past century that has a cargo cult mentality. The gods of money (usually equated with the government) mean for them to have the money, but evil entities like Walmart and McDonald's interecept the cargo and keep it for themselves.
    How can you become successful, either professionally or financially, when you think like that?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, one thing I know for sure... I value completely different things than most people I know...and I have felt (oh whoa whoa whoa whoa) this way since birth (or there 'bouts.)
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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Regular people must of invested, and I'm sure they lost a lot too. But they were gambling their money.
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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yeah I count myself in the lower category. I try and improve myself in the job I work, but I'm not willing to sacrifice having fun and going out at night to party and making friends and chasing girls and a bunch of other things that make it harder for me to grow in the company. I like my life and my values aren't necessarily to make more money alone. And I understand that I won't be making a fortune in my future, but I'm going to have a good life story and that's my value.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I don't know what qualifies someone as "lower class," financially speaking (unless you're not talking about money, but rather mentality), but I know lots of folks who understand the philosophy and aren't making much money at all. I don't think there's a direct correlation between understanding and making money. There's also a matter of choice to consider. Not everyone's passion lies in a profession that pulls in large figures.
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  • Posted by $ minniepuck 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In answer to your question: it's because putting money into D'Anconia Copper was a setup for the looters. The people who invested in the company were the "aristocrats" as Rand described them; I don't think she ever said that regular people invested. Francisco was punishing the very looters that were forcing everyone else to give up their money while they hid their own.
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    What??? Whew...okay..
    The gulch "runners" are aware of anyone who recognizes value for value and living life for one's self because of their love of it. I was never under the idea that they were looking for only rich people. OMG I know so many "educated" "well-off" people who couldn't be more clueless. This has not a thing to do with a person's "station" it has to do with how they think...being principled can actually make you less wealthy, because you're not willing to sell yourself out for a nice paycheck (I include myself in this example)...I left behind good pay and benefits to work a job I love (or loved, but that's another story).
    Rand TOTALLY knew that there were some in the 'lower classes" that 'got it' AND that the others would become ravenous for other peoples money. As for 'digging themselves out of the lower classes"...who are you to say that they aren't happy where they are...and still 'get it'?
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yesterday I had a fantasy story going in my head, that takes place before Dagny follows Galt to the valley.

    A man appears in the valley, bedraggled, half dead, and is confronted by the inhabitants... because he came there to kill Francisco D'Anconia.

    It comes from part of the book I don't get. Francisco ruins all the people who invested in his company. But that would include thousands of innocents who invested in the company because they believed in *him*. I was always given to understand that people investing in stocks provide capital for companies to expand and grow. Why does this deserve punishment?

    Anyway, so he's there, having been thwarted from killing Francisco, on his knees in the street because his strength fails him, surrounded by Galt, Ragnar, Midas and Francisco, tears streaming down his face in pain, anger and frustration, his world having been destroyed. He explains how hard he'd worked at his job, and at every attempt to earn promotion, to get ahead, he was thwarted. How he'd then gone without, skipping meals even, to get enough money to invest in D'Anconia Global Commodities, because he'd followed Francisco's life since before he became a playboy and admired him. And then his hero ruined him, taking everything he had.
    Ragnar has a gun to his head, and is about to deliver the coup de grace because they can't let him out to tell about the valley, and to coerce him to tell them how he followed Francisco to the valley, when Francisco kneels before the man, eyes locked, and quietly says, "I have done you a great harm, and for that I ask your forgiveness.
    "Raise your right hand. No, keep looking into my eyes, and repeat after me:
    "I swear by my life and my love of it..."
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  • Posted by Hiraghm 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    No, I did not imply that "lower" workers would not be gulch worthy... but that those running the gulch would think them unworthy.
    Elsewhere I mention Dagny Taggart's opinion of the "common workers" whom she gathers to hold signal lanterns when the power goes out... which changes when she see John Galt among them.

    Cherryl is a prime example of someone who "gets" it and comes from the lower classes.

    However, I suspect Rand never imagined the lower classes becoming the animals they are becoming. It's my opinion that the vast majority of the lower classes, in real life, can't get the philosophy. That's why they're stuck in the lower classes. We'll find out if people in the lower classes like me can "get it" and subsequently dig themselves out of the lower classes.
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  • Posted by Rozar 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I like that answer, but they kept Dagny in part to make sure she didn't tell any outsiders. What if he gave up the location to the government?
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  • Posted by LetsShrug 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Since this was posted as a response to me.... my confusion is with Hiraghm who seems to keep implying that "lower" (my word) workers would not be gulch worthy and I disagree. I think people who 'get' the philosophy can come from all walks...so I'm trying to get him to explain his premise. :)
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    In the book, the one worker who told the story of the motor factory implied that once it was implemented everyone could see treating everyone as if they were one big family was hugely unhealthy. That sanctimonious little shrew who doled out the cash was most memorable villain from the two Rand books I've read. It was clear that almost all workers at all levels realized the plan was ill-conceived, at least according the one worker who gave the account to Dagny.
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  • Posted by $ stargeezer 11 years, 7 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Most likely given him a meal, talk to him and if he didn't belong with them, give him a ride out. If he'd refuse to go, then they'd be forced to take care of business.
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