Mike, good reply thanks.

You say that the military teaches the value placed on personal honor and provides a path to success, a way up and out.
I could add attitudes like -Life is not perfect but any individual can make things at least a little bit better or learn to accept the nonsense with stoicism. -Promotion is on merit at least sometimes. -Life, success and survival depend on others so trust them and they trust you to do your job.

On top of that is the education in basic literacy and technical skills.

All that is good, yes?
Is there evidence that military experience is improving attitudes and skills especially among the demographics most deficient?
If so, should we be glad for the military doing that, as well as what it is set up to do? Maybe it should it be expanded to do more of it! Social engineering.

I have almost talked myself into it, but I recall another institution is supposed to do that job, the education system. Both are state run,.
In my view the military has some success, the education system has poor success and is getting worse.

Maybe not where you intended your thread going but this is how my thoughts went.

If you care to look for the numbers yourself, you will find that African-Americans are over-represented in the military, as are Southerners, and males. Women are severely under-represented, of course. Catholics, Jews,... high school, college, post-graduate degree, ... family income... parents' occupation ... urban, suburban, rural,.... family prior military...

The numbers are what they are for reasons. High school is a minimum requirement, but the Army does not go looking for college graduates, Catholics, or women. It is pretty much open anyone who wants to serve, and the numbers fall where they do.

Based on my own learning in college, I believe that African-Americans are over-represented for two reasons: the military is a path to success, a way up and out; and A-A culture is in large part an outgrowth Southern culture, within which military service is an expression of the value placed on personal honor.

As a corollary, bear in mind that many of the largest bases are in the South. Familiarity with the military, the opportunity to know people in the military, supports the acculturation to military society.

As for social engineering, at the peak in World War II only 10% of the nation was in the military. That's a lot, but, not much, really. Now it is 0.8% active and 2% including reserves and veterans. It is hard to see much social engineering going on.

My experience from university social science classes is that most people take most polling at face value. "Do you drive to work?" Well, I drive to a public transportation lot and take the rapid downtown from there... But, with large numbers, it all sort of evens out and the results are reliable to some level of statistical confidence.

In their narrative Schake and Mattis say that some people had no idea how large the military is, how many people serve right now, from 180,000 to 18 million. But that question was not published in the survey. It does underscore the general lack of knowledge about the military, despite the broad emotional support.

I would have a hard time answering those questions because on any spending I want to reduce it, although I'd be reluctant to answer that way because the question implies it means relative to other programs. Also on many of the questions, I would answer "I don't know".

10% are unsure whether they're liberal, moderate, or conservative, even though asking the question that way encourages respondants to select one of the three. I wonder if they asked people, "Regarding the spectrum of liberal, moderate, conservative, how sure are you of where you fall on this," I bet very few people are "very sure". People think for themselves.

Reading the survey made me think it's hard to know anyone about these questions.

I have a perception that in the US military, at least the army, there is major representation of Blacks.
This may be true of police as well.
Do you think there is any change in attitudes of those with military experience and their families?
Yes because those occupations give personal confidence, training which is useful outside,
and some income security.
No if willingness to join required those character traits to exist before joining.

That is, is a large military that recruits from the unskilled, a tool, good or bad, of social engineering?