"My position requires no proof;" Why are you in the Gulch?

ok. but this is why I think you're sometimes cranky

In other words: You haven’t had sex in awhile?

So, um, Hiraghm. Are you suggesting I should have only had sex when I'm interested in procreating? Bawahahaha!

Oh, pu-leeeze! Get thee to a cup and a surrogate.

" I swear by my life to live for no man...."

Thanks John. I wish that no abortion was necessary, that every child born on Earth was wanted, had two caring parents, and all the necessities and opportunities available. As I wrote on my first post on this thread, someone needs to do the philosophy work necessary to prove the logical starting point of human life. As long as it remains on an emotional level, even people who basically agree will be at loggerheads.

"...impotence in the face of death?" Yes, I have faced impotence in the face of death but that was something which was not elective. I guess why I get so worked up about this is the fact that at any point in the chain, up to the point of conception, choices could have been made to forestall these consequences. Even removing abstinence as an absolutely failsafe method, the available choices were there. Why should an innocent life (for in my opinion, such it is) be made to be expunged for someone else's convenience? I guess we will probably remain diametrically opposed on this and can agree to disagree. I apologize for my earlier outburst.

yes

I'll look forward to reading woman's views on this subject.

We have argued this many times. It is one of the two most difficult tenets of objectivism to argue. I understand Rand's line of reasoning. She argued, one must give precedence to the actual over the potential. Thanks to medical advances, today the potential has greater chance for becoming actual earlier in the pregnancy. I find the practice deplorable, and think it should never be used as birth control. However, I also find myself without moral justification to force a woman to prostrate herself before society and justify her decision. What right do I have to demand she reveal and relive a traumatic experience to gain this control of her own destiny? If a woman is the victim of rape or incest, who am I to tell her what to do in the first trimester? I think late term abortions are barbaric and should be outlawed except in case of medical necessity to save the mother. Better birth control and adoption are more agreeable options. I do not believe it feasible to outlaw it completely, and the law would not stop it in any case. It would just drive it back to the back alleys where more lives would be at risk. How would that be superior? I suspect that in the near future this issue will be diminished by virtue of better birth control. Aren't the numbers already going down? I still struggle with this one.... :(

Live and let live. If I judge you and want you to bend to my will, that gives you the right to do the same to me. Instead, you are free in my eyes; we can be mutual friends without placing demands on each other. Now forcing me to pay for abortions through ACA we can both agree is unjust. I doubt many people are “pro” abortion; that poor choice of words is hostile and probably inaccurate. If you try to live a philosophy and there appears to be conflict one of your premise are wrong; live and let live or conform to my beliefs? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

Until someone can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt when human life begins, all arguments are feckless. I know this is a daunting task. I've tried. Does human life begin…
1) At the twinkle of an eye?
2) When sperm and egg connect?
3) At twenty weeks of gestation?
4) When the fetus is capable of living independently of the womb?
5) At delivery?

I'll applaud anyone who takes up the challenge.

I had to google that

whoa.
I am finding it more than passing ironic that this site has many participating females and none until a few minutes ago entered into this discussion. Why? I wonder why...

"In instances where she has no control of the act of sex, some leniency can be enjoined but those should be adjudicated on a case by case basis. I guess you've never stood in the place of a man who cannot stop a woman from destroying a part of his future. I have. So, until you do, SHUT UP."
this is clearly an issue you feel personally about. I am sorry for your pain. but you cannot pick and choose who gets to have an opinion on such a large issue, john. The debate is healthy and persuade away, but others feel just as strongly as you do, and I do not want to be legislated de facto gender. That is in the past, and women are not property. where does it stop? can you force her to eat properly, not take drugs, stop from falling purposefully down a flight of stairs? Force will never be the good answer.

thank you

Agreed. Even condoms aren't 100% effective. It's an unwanted trespasser on private property. Doesn't she have a right to remove it from her body?

Hell no I will not shut up! Do you think you are
the only man to face impotence in the face of
death?

Granted her womb is her own. Until she becomes pregnant. At which time, she is no longer responsible unto her own self but the fetus as well. The time for her to control her reproduction is BEFORE the fact, not after. You are the one equating her to a 'farm animal', not me. I give her the absolute right to have sex whenever and with whomever but she must bear the responsibility of ensuring a state of non-fertility. In instances where she has no control of the act of sex, some leniency can be enjoined but those should be adjudicated on a case by case basis. I guess you've never stood in the place of a man who cannot stop a woman from destroying a part of his future. I have. So, until you do, SHUT UP.