WHAT IN HELL IS WRONG WITH LIBERTARIANISM?

Posted by WDonway 6 years, 3 months ago to Philosophy
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Libertarianism can be based on experience as conservatives do. I do not doubt that if people could observe a libertarian/capitalist regime in practice and compare it with monarchism, socialism, syndicalism, etc., many would see the enormous benefits of freedom and choose Libertarianism. In making arguments for liberty, John Stuart Mill, of course, focused on practical (utilitarianism) arguments that it produced the greatest good for the greatest number and I believe that a libertarian-capitalist regime does that. But one question is: how does a full, working libertarian regime come into existence in the first place? How does on advocate it before it exists and we have experience of its benefits? Also, how to defend it since there always will be intellectuals prepared to argue that there are benefits higher than freedom: for example, eternal salvation of the soul, living a virtuous life, preventing ugly excesses that liberty permits. When Irving Kristol went from communist to capitalist, he wrote "Two Cheers for Capitalism" and, also, an essay, "When Virtue Loses All Her Loveliness." Capitalism worked but it was esthetically hard to take. And then, how to defend liberty against being gnawed away by constant compromises? Sure, liberals would say, today, we need to be free and we love the benefits of "the market," but you can have those and still have a robust welfare state. And you can keep having more intervention while the market is working--until suddenly the market not longer does not "work," liberty is gone, and even advocating it may come under censorship. It is only philosophy, fundamental principles about man's nature, the nature and role of reason that operates volitionally, the connection between reason and innovation and survival that enable one to argue in principle that encroachments on liberty may appear at first to be harmless but in principle you are headed in a wrong and disastrous direction. And Ayn Rand showed us, brilliantly and in detail, because defenders of capitalism could not make a philosophical case against altruism, a Christian society in the end would not tolerate the selfishness that capitalism involved. And the Christians who supported capitalism tried every possible argument from results of capitalism--and kept losing and losing, as we know. So an ethics of selfishness must be defended because capitalism indeed is the politics of pursuit of one's own happiness. And that ethic of selfishness cannot be defended without reference to man's nature, the nature and role of values, and the connection between freedom of judgment and action and achievement of ones highest value: maintaining and fulfilling ones own life. Which only consistent freedom makes possible.


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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Which definition has been around longer? That's the one with historical precedent and generally-accepted meaning. It doesn't mean Rand can't make her case, but as I was taught in my freshman-level marketing class, first impressions are very difficult to overcome. If the first thing someone sees about your product (and ideas are products of the mind, are they not?) is contrary to how they have historically viewed the world, you have an uphill battle to educate that person and persuade them to agree with you. And there is no more uphill battle than when dealing with closely held convictions like religion. (I could point to any number of "holy" wars which have occurred in human history.)

    There is almost no case-in-point more obvious than the last election. Both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump had almost universal name recognition and with that came negative (and positive) associations largely dependent upon which side of the aisle one was on. This is very rare in politics because it meant that the debates were largely a formality - not a public perception changer like they were for say Romney vs Obama in 2012. As a result, the tactics for both individuals were to capitalize on the other candidate's perceived flaws rather than on what they, themselves would do.

    Marketers have a very difficult task. They have to include just enough of that which is familiar with just enough of the unknown. The familiar is there as the hook to get the potential customer to learn more. The unknown is there to provide an avenue for the marketer to influence or educate on. From a purely marketing perspective, Rand's choice to title her book The Virtue of Selfishness didn't score her many points on the marketing interest scale other than as a provocateur.

    (As an aside, Christians don't attribute selfishness to acting against the well-being of others nearly as much as acting to please the emotional/short-term at the expense of the spiritual/long-term. I don't think Ayn Rand understood that she was taking an antagonistic stand when in reality there was very little real difference between her own use and that of Christians.)
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I suppose you are taking the extreme definition of Altruism, utter selflessness or the greater good first?
    I'm speaking of (perhaps not what we here call altruism), not a morality and a common emotional response to other's needs. It is just a common (normal?) thought process, probably rooted in tribalism. It is one emotional input to consider when making a logical decision.

    I am sure you are not asserting that me going over to my friends house to help him with a giant tree that fell across his driveway uncompensated is immoral.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Todays Libertarian is an offshoot of Objectivism, not the other way around. Lib.ism is not a philosophy and - as you said - its followers can have very different values and often irrational ones.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    She did not "rebrand" or "co-op" the word.
    Selfishness has always meant acting in one's own interest. Christianity simply assumed that meant acting against the well-being of others.
    Acting selflessly can only lead to personal destruction.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Not quite! Altruism is an evil morality that most people do not recognize as such. But fortunately, not all people adhere to it. It is certainly NOT in me.
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  • Posted by tdechaine 6 years, 3 months ago
    A lot is wrong with Libertarianism, but I think you are confusing that with Capitalism; they are not fully compatible.
    So if you asked what is wrong with Capitalism, I would say nothing if you truly make it laissez-faire with separation of State and economics / State and religion.
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  • Posted by term2 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Greatest good is meaningless and impossible to define. Freedom means that each person gets to enjoy what HE or SHE makes of innate abilities and the world around them. No guarantees.
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  • Posted by term2 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    People seem to have a problem with living together without controlling other people. I think this is a basic human thing, We are born into socialism (family), and tend to revert back to it on a societal level.
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  • Posted by term2 6 years, 3 months ago
    Rather than extoll the advantages of capitalism, which doesnt really exist today anymore, another approach is to extoll the failures of socialism, fascism, and other forms of collectivism.

    Venezuela is what we are headed to become. THAT should be the picture to combat Cortez, Sanders, O'Rourke, and the other socialists. Its the poor people who are wanting the freebies today and vote for these people who are DESTITUTE in Venezuela. The rich have left, after being looted.
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  • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
    I am making ONE point about libertarianism: If it is not part of an integrated philosophical system able to address moral premises and questions about human nature, then, however "practical" it is, it cannot be sustained intellectually and is a vulnerable political philosophy of capitalism.

    Really, that is the argument of this brief piece. And its is an exposition of the fundamental objection that Ayn Rand had to litertarianism. Later, when the theory flirted with anarchy, it no longer was worth discussing.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 6 years, 3 months ago
    Altruism is difficult to set aside in a philosophical argument. However, it is unnecessary. The question is not "Is there, or should there be altruism?" The question is should it be instituted in government. This is simple to defend against. All the rest of altruism is irrelevant as voluntary, and we'll find it in everyone.
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that has to do with Rand's co-opting of the word "selfishness". Christians have a very different notion of selfishness than the self-interest Rand advocates but calls "selfishness". The problem is that when an Objectivist say "selfishness" to a Christian they are thinking of selfishness according to Christ. And so what you get into is an argument of authority which Rand can not possibly win (because in order to do so the Christian must renounce his very religion).

    I still argue that this was Rand's greatest tactical mistake: to try to re-brand a word with known connotations and definitions to suit her own interests. (Woodrow Wilson was able to do it with "liberal", but he had half the country behind him in that effort and it still took more than sixty years.)
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  • Posted by $ blarman 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that one of the primary problems is not only the lack of definitive policy stands, but the contradicting nature of those stands in today's world. On the one hand, Libertarians are fiscally conservative and want a limited government, so the Conservatives will stand with them on those issues while the Progressives oppose them. On the other hand, however, they are also into legalization of drugs and prostitution which sits fine with the Progressives, but not so well with the Conservatives. So they are simultaneously antagonizing and courting the same people at the same time.

    To continue the Treebeard analogy, however, right now the Socialists/Progressives are waging a scorched earth policy a la Saruman and the orcs. As much as they may not want to admit it, Libertarians are either going to have to side with Conservatives in this fight or there will be nothing left.
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  • Posted by Solver 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    “You don’t really need that fancy wallet. Give it to us and we let you go.”
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "why does he NEED"
    I cannot stand arguments that include this unstated premise that the burden is on the person who has something to justify why someone else should not take his stuff. The burden should be on the people wanting to take.

    We hear it most commonly from people wanting to take away people's guns or drugs. "What does anyone really need with..."
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    I think that one of the problem is that the term "libertarian" is not nearly as well defined as "objectivism" which has a single person as the source. "Libertarians" have a wide range of beliefs, not restricted by the stated philosophy of the Libertarian party any more than the Republican platform defines the opinions of all Republicans.

    It seems to me that objectivists are a subset of libertarians. There is nothing in objectivist beliefs that I have seen that would be considered completely out of bounds of the broad definition, although there are certainly people within that broad definition who are not objectivists.

    And that's really the essence of politics and political organization. As Treebeard says in Lord of the Rings "I am not altogether on anybody’s side, because nobody is altogether on my side." Unless we are going to be a party of one, we have to work with people with varying visions that are sufficiently compatible with ours.

    Because in reality, and we are talking about the real world, the mass of people will use force to enforce their will. You can have constitutions and governmental protection but when the right circumstances come up there will be a New Deal and then it doesn't really matter what protections you have built and whether your philosophy gives the state the right to initiate force against you. Reality gives it the ability.
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  • Posted by $ WilliamShipley 6 years, 3 months ago
    They say that Jeff Bezos has a net worth of $140 billion, although he may have to split it. When the subject of selfishness comes up, the question becomes: why does he NEED $140 billion? Couldn't he live just fine with only 14 billion? I could probably get by on that!

    The reality of wealth is not that someone HAS that many assets, at some point we are not talking about how many assets you have to purchase goods and services, we are talking about what assets you control, what you can manage and invest.

    And that's the essence of capitalism. In capitalism we give control of assets to people who have demonstrated that they can protect and grow them. The idea that these assets would be better placed in the hands of people who have never run so much as a hot dog stand is ludicrous. It's wrapped up in words like "fairness" and "caring", but it's really about who will do the best job of managing assets.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 6 years, 3 months ago
    One of Ayn Rand's arguments against libertarianism at the time was that she argued that libertarians wanted no government (i.e. anarchy). I have not seen this to be true during my lifetime. Libertarians have advocated for less government, something that I am sure AR would have been happy about. Perhaps the libertarians of AR's time were a bit too extreme for AR, but no Objectvist, nor any libertarian, nor any group of either could ever reduce the size of government down to a level that either would agree with.
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  • Posted by j_IR1776wg 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Ayn Rand on John Stuart Mill and Utilitarianism

    "Religious influences are not the only villain behind the censorship legislation; there is another one: the social school of morality, exemplified by John Stuart Mill. Mill rejected the concept of individual rights and replaced it with the notion that the “public good” is the sole justification of individual freedom. (Society, he argued, has the power to enslave or destroy its exceptional men, but it should permit them to be free, because it benefits from their efforts.) Among the many defaults of the conservatives in the past hundred years, the most shameful one, perhaps, is the fact that they accepted John Stuart Mill as a defender of capitalism."
    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/mil...

    Rand and Mill were polar opposites as are individual rights and the public good. Why are you using Mill and his Utilitarianism to argue for liberty?
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  • Posted by $ CBJ 6 years, 3 months ago
    Individual liberty requires a capitalist economy. But a capitalist economy does not always lead to individual liberty. There are dozens of ways, good and bad, that a capitalist system can emerge and function within a nation and a culture. Private ownership of the means of production is a vital component of a free market economy, but it becomes a tool of oppression if its legal structure is defective. Libertarians and conservatives cannot successfully promote economic freedom by attempting to defend the institutions and practices that, over time, have come to be associated with today’s form of capitalism. Winning the hearts and minds of voters is possible only if we make it clear that we support capitalism only within the wider framework of a free market economy, and that we strongly oppose all policies of today’s “capitalist” nations that violate individual rights.
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  • Posted by CircuitGuy 6 years, 3 months ago in reply to this comment.
    "No one read that far?"
    I have no problem pointing out that libertarianism works from a utilitarian standpoint. That's not the same as supporting utilitarianism.

    Regarding the end, I agree with it, and after reading The Virtue of Selishness I don't understand why anyone, including Christians, won't abide selfishness. Do they try to take advantage of their friends and neighbors, getting them to help with projects, childcare, lending things and then try not to reciprocate? Do they want g/fs or b/fs to go out with them out of pity? Do they what their boss or clients to keep them b/c they feel sorry for them? It seems like selfishness should be easy to accept.
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  • Posted by 6 years, 3 months ago
    Of course, in mentioning Utilitarianism, I was listing some ways to try to argue for liberty, or defend it, and I end by saying that you must have an integrated philosophical system like Objectivism. No one read that far?
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