Trump and Ojectivism
Posted by Tavolino 5 years, 8 months ago to Government
Trump and Objectivism
I’m puzzled by the formal Objectivist movement (ARI, TOS) and their complete disdain for President Trump. From the beginning they have never missed a chance not only to distance themselves, but also follow with a pompous negative certainty, without having the necessary relevant facts. Ironic, considering our foundations are based on proper identification (metaphysics) and validation (epistemology) before passing judgment or taking action (ethics). While I agree principles should never be compromised, context and perspective need to be objectively evaluated and applied, rather than a blind intrinsic repetition. Regarding Trump, there some broad hierarchal recognitions that I believe are very consonant with our philosophy.
Our fundamental basis is metaphysics, which is the proper identification of the nature of something. More than any past politician, however brash, Trump calls it like he sees it within his known knowledge. Be it the emotional motivations of political correctness, the lies of the “fake news,” the imbedded corruption, the recognition of the good and bad on the world stage (Israel, China, North Korea, Iran), the parasitical nations that feed off our teat, etc., etc.. The transparency of his thoughts have been unmatched and not hidden behind political speak, spins, alternate agendas, backroom deals or deceit. It is what it is.
As Dr. Jerome Huyler noted, “Trump has the sense of life of an individualist. His common sense - born of decades of experience as a businessman and dealing with politicians - tells him that taxes and heavy-handed regulations destroy economies. It is true, as Rand said that common sense is the child's method of thinking. But it is born of empirical experience,” the basis of knowledge acquisition.
His “America First” mantra should be championed by us. Rand had always said America will never regain its greatness until it changes its altruist morality. America First is just that. It’s not some blind German nationalism, but an attitude that America’s interests need to be selfishly upheld. This is a necessary fundamental to our ethics. He has attempted to keep open discussions with all, based around trade and fair exchange. Rand had said, “The trader and the warrior have been fundamental antagonist throughout history.” His movement away from aggressive wars, political globalism and multi-lateral agreements keep our own self-interests as paramount. It’s the application of the trader principle.
Lastly, his counter-punch mindset and approach is completely in line with our moral rightness of retaliation. He may prod or poke, but does not pull the proverbial trigger until he’s attacked, either with words or actions.
There is a dire threat that’s facing our country today with the abuses and power of the ingrained bureaucracy utilized for political purposes. It's imperative that all Americans unite, led by the voices of reason to identify and expose this fundamental threat to freedom. It's not about the false alternative of Trump or never Trump, it's about the American system and the fundamental role, purpose and responsibilities of government, regardless ones political persuasion.
As Objectivists, we need to continually apply our principles in the real world of what is, slowly moving it to where it should be. We need to descend from the “ivory tower” to the first floor of reality. Trump may not be able to articulate the principles, but are not what’s mentioned above consistent with our most basic and fundamental beliefs as Objectivists?
I’m puzzled by the formal Objectivist movement (ARI, TOS) and their complete disdain for President Trump. From the beginning they have never missed a chance not only to distance themselves, but also follow with a pompous negative certainty, without having the necessary relevant facts. Ironic, considering our foundations are based on proper identification (metaphysics) and validation (epistemology) before passing judgment or taking action (ethics). While I agree principles should never be compromised, context and perspective need to be objectively evaluated and applied, rather than a blind intrinsic repetition. Regarding Trump, there some broad hierarchal recognitions that I believe are very consonant with our philosophy.
Our fundamental basis is metaphysics, which is the proper identification of the nature of something. More than any past politician, however brash, Trump calls it like he sees it within his known knowledge. Be it the emotional motivations of political correctness, the lies of the “fake news,” the imbedded corruption, the recognition of the good and bad on the world stage (Israel, China, North Korea, Iran), the parasitical nations that feed off our teat, etc., etc.. The transparency of his thoughts have been unmatched and not hidden behind political speak, spins, alternate agendas, backroom deals or deceit. It is what it is.
As Dr. Jerome Huyler noted, “Trump has the sense of life of an individualist. His common sense - born of decades of experience as a businessman and dealing with politicians - tells him that taxes and heavy-handed regulations destroy economies. It is true, as Rand said that common sense is the child's method of thinking. But it is born of empirical experience,” the basis of knowledge acquisition.
His “America First” mantra should be championed by us. Rand had always said America will never regain its greatness until it changes its altruist morality. America First is just that. It’s not some blind German nationalism, but an attitude that America’s interests need to be selfishly upheld. This is a necessary fundamental to our ethics. He has attempted to keep open discussions with all, based around trade and fair exchange. Rand had said, “The trader and the warrior have been fundamental antagonist throughout history.” His movement away from aggressive wars, political globalism and multi-lateral agreements keep our own self-interests as paramount. It’s the application of the trader principle.
Lastly, his counter-punch mindset and approach is completely in line with our moral rightness of retaliation. He may prod or poke, but does not pull the proverbial trigger until he’s attacked, either with words or actions.
There is a dire threat that’s facing our country today with the abuses and power of the ingrained bureaucracy utilized for political purposes. It's imperative that all Americans unite, led by the voices of reason to identify and expose this fundamental threat to freedom. It's not about the false alternative of Trump or never Trump, it's about the American system and the fundamental role, purpose and responsibilities of government, regardless ones political persuasion.
As Objectivists, we need to continually apply our principles in the real world of what is, slowly moving it to where it should be. We need to descend from the “ivory tower” to the first floor of reality. Trump may not be able to articulate the principles, but are not what’s mentioned above consistent with our most basic and fundamental beliefs as Objectivists?
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This one is in response to https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post... Can you move it by copying and pasting before continuing? After you paste into the Reply box you can go back and delete the original one above if you want to.
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Even within his framework, he says nothing about the fact that so much of what we buy "from China" is from American companies in China.
How does this affect your company?
It does not "must mean" that. Obviously we are talking about voters choosing how to cast their own votes to be counted within in a real election rather than squandering them for a different purpose that detracts from the voting and accomplishes nothing in the election.
"It also implies that voters should limit their choices to the 'real contest' within the corrupt two-party system, and that giving them another choice is immoral."
It states, not "implies", that votes should be cast for serious candidates, which is what make them "votes" and not an opinion with no impact on the election. If the limited choice makes no difference in reality, regardless of what one would prefer with a different choice not on the ballot, then don't vote. If it does make a difference then it is immoral to not take advantage of the choice. A fringe party that cannot win is not "giving them another choice", let alone a moral one. People already have the choice to not participate in the election.
"...your vote has never made a difference in the outcome... your lone vote will not spell the difference between victory and defeat for either establishment party candidate."
Individual votes do in fact determine the result -- they are counted one at a time and the counts added. Included in the process is arguing for others to vote in the best way available.
That is the way elections work. Elections do not mean and are not intended to mean that every individual vote by itself determines an election outcome with multiple contradictory outcomes. We understand the principle and do not demand a contradiction in its place.
The alternative would be the abolition of elections. That would be a one party system and it won't be the Libertarians. The pitch that 'your vote doesn't matter so vote for me' is one of the more hilarious appeals from the Libertarian Party.
"...by voting Libertarian, we add to the vote totals of the only party that consistently supports individual freedom. And those vote totals matter – the establishment parties pay close attention when a significant number of voters break with the two-party system, and they will often modify their stands on certain issues to protect their base and prevent further defections."
Politicians do not "modify their stands" based on a hopeless fringe party. When politicians look at the vote totals of the Libertarian Party they conclude, "Those are the ones who do not matter because they are not participating in the election''. They do try to get nonvoters to vote for them.
Their positions are based on the philosophical state of the culture in whatever the area of the voters, with manipulative pragmatist variations within the basic premises. Whether there are two or in the future more than two parties with significant ability to win elections has nothing to do with the Libertarian Party.
"... by voting for the 'lesser of two evils,' we are saying in effect, “I support the political status quo. I have faith in the two-party system..."
No it does not. It means that we vote within the possibilities still available to us. It is not an endorsement of the candidates or faith in anything. The vote determines who will be in office out of the few possibilities.
"This truly is a wasted vote, and does nothing to advance the cause of freedom."
There is no vote to waste outside of the choices in the election, and advancing the "cause of freedom" isn't meaningfully on the ballot.
Advancing the "cause of freedom" requires changing over time the basic premises held by most people away from the progressively increasing altruism-collectivism-statism and towards the Enlightenment ideals of reason, individualism and freedom. What people believe determines what kind of people are available to run for office for what purpose, and who among them runs with a possibility of winning.
There hasn't been a presidential election with a real candidate openly advocating individual freedom on principle -- before he gave up on that after the beginning of the campaign -- for over half a century, followed by the even less consistent appeals to freedom almost 40 years ago (and which resulted in a bigger more statist government despite improvements in the economy).
The most we can expect now is who within the accepted statism will advocate retaining some semblance of capitalism in a mixed economy versus explicit hard left collectivists. That can be a difference worth voting on that at least makes a difference to our lives. The Libertarian Party does not, and the Johnson-Weld clown team was not even remotely a "party of principle" "consistently supporting individual freedom" or any other principle or anything serious at all.
Maybe you should wait until tomorrow to respond.
Calling for help...anytime, I guess.
Listen carefully to his comments -“if you don’t like the tariffs, make your products here or buy from another country than China”. I say we will see 100% tariffs before we see them go away on Chinese goods
I agree he can’t just forbid all purchases from China outright, but I estimate his rhetoric is telling us that for our own good we all should stop buying Chinese goods. Probably good advice actually.
I think trump gave the Chinese government to erase out their communist leanings, which of course they would reject. What he really wants now is for Americans to stop buying Chinese stuff for patriotic/philosophical reasons. I think this is a good idea due to china’s Avowed expansionist moves we wouldn’t buy from nazi hitler and shouldn’t buy from communist China either
If the Libertarian Party “takes votes away” from Trump, that must mean that Trump “owns” those votes and the LP “stole” them.
It also implies that voters should limit their choices to the “real contest” within the corrupt two-party system, and that giving them another choice is immoral.
None of this is true.
In every presidential election, people are told that they are “wasting their vote” if they vote for the Libertarian candidate.
As one who has voted for every Libertarian presidential candidate since 1972, I think the exact opposite is true. By voting for my principles, my votes over the years have had far more impact than if I had allowed the two “establishment” parties to dictate my choices.
Consider this: no matter how you have voted for President in the past, your vote has never made a difference in the outcome. Nor will it do so in the future. Even if you live in a “swing state” that could go either way, your lone vote will not spell the difference between victory and defeat for either establishment party candidate.
So if you can’t change the election outcome, why vote at all? The answer is that by voting Libertarian, we add to the vote totals of the only party that consistently supports individual freedom. And those vote totals matter – the establishment parties pay close attention when a significant number of voters break with the two-party system, and they will often modify their stands on certain issues to protect their base and prevent further defections.
On the other hand, by voting for the “lesser of two evils,” we are saying in effect, “I support the political status quo. I have faith in the two-party system, and I’m not interested in supporting candidates from other parties, even if they have fresh ideas that I agree with. I don’t like either of the two establishment party candidates, but I will vote for Establishment Party Candidate X because he/she is not quite as bad as Establishment Party Candidate Y.” This truly is a wasted vote, and does nothing to advance the cause of freedom.
I agree, the Libertarian Party has taken away from Trump, more than it took away from Hillary, a net to Hillary. Fortunately we had Bernie.
Now, to the errors. I did not assert we needed to have a Libertaran Party. I said, Libertarians and Objectivists should not fight. We should be helping them, and they should be helping us, because no two are more aligned in politics. Yet here, we often uselessly argue about tiny differences, while the US burns.
I like how you assert, Ayn was not upset about co-opting her message, she was upset about "half plagerizied". You really want to assert she was only concerned someone said what she did and called it their own, and NOT that they got attention for it? Yeah, sure!
Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery, and entirely supportive of the argument I am making. Being angry with dead Libertarians is just like black people seeking remuneration for slavery. There may be a reason to disagree with present Libertatians, but they are still a larger group than Objectivists, and the center (left/right) is ripe for the picking. Here we are just arguing amongst ourselves instead of convincing others that freedom is better than force.
By separating from them, she may have ensured they'd fail. The world will never know. Fortunately the only place I have to argue Libertarian vs Ayn is here. The rest of the world thinks they are the same. Unfortunately the right and left hand may not be connected in the cranium.
One just said, arguing against Trump, in a manner that gets Elizabeth Warren elected, is illogical, spiteful, and not in self-interest.
Self-interest is Objective. Spite and non-logic are its antithesis. Therefore, voting for Trump is an Objective behavior..
No one has taken on that assertion. Probably because no one can. Yet people continue to discuss this as if there is some better practical alternative.
On that note, let me help with a definition:
"Ivory Tower (n) - a state of privileged seclusion or separation from the facts and practicalities of the real world."
How about you actually use your words and argue the point, instead of beginning another baseless assertion? Just like I did above. Even better, try to take apart the logic of my above simple assertion.
You do know how this works right?
Begin with facts, introduce logic connecting them, draw conclusion supported by facts. - Not just more circular statements like "Trump occasionally doing something better does not make it "Objectivist". (Nice use of the pronoun "it" that can refer to many things)
Ayn Rand also commented on choosing a presidential candidate in her articles on Reagan's promotion of religion in politics. She did not vote for Reagan (not voting at all) but said she would if the alternative in the choice were another McGovern, which rules out any electoral support for any of the Democrats at least since Clinton.
In the last presidential election the controversy over the Libertarian Party was over the ineptness and lack of proper principles by the party and its candidates, and the fact that voting for what is still a fringe party after over 40 years would take votes away from the real contest, helping Clinton.
He reveals himself repeatedly as interested in making "deals", as if the whole country were his own business and it his place to control trade agreements with entire nations as nothing but dealing for a financial benefit.
But even when he has a better approach or goal than others, not every good idea or every action deemed acceptable at the moment is "Objectivist". People can have good ideas arising out of some semblance of common sense and expertise, random influence, mixed in with bad premises.
Objectivism is a philosophy embracing thinking, morality, and a kind of sense of life more than politics. The idea of calling an isolated political act of the moment "Objectivist" because it happens to coincide with something Objectivism would imply is very dangerous.
A collectivist who wants a better economy for "the nation" and implements a statist policy that makes some improvement, at least for the moment, is not being "Objectivist". In our being stuck with a mixed political system becoming worse it's better to have relatively more prosperity than more impoverishment, but that doesn't make the politics "Objectivist".
The ones who were honest and trying to understand themselves were the best receivers and the best source of discussion. They don't want to be "sold". I have found that to be true in any subject. The ones who don't want to understand, aren't interested, and/or have emotional problems of their own don't matter; they can't be reached anyway, at least not until and if they develop their own rational motives for their own lives, and "selling" to them doesn't help anyone. Developing and spreading good ideas in any field is a long term process; it's not like a political campaign for votes in an imminent election.
I support Trump because:
I do NOT want to see gun control, and he will veto it
My taxes are lower, and no more AMT.
These are simple reasons, and it is absurd and irresponsible to argue it is not better than it would be with Hillary et al.
"It is hard to portray Trumps antics as 'upsides'..."
Precisely, not a little, precisely, the type of language used by people when something works, but it isn't their agenda. Like it or not, this is what you wrote, and this is who also uses the style.
There is no "blue is red" strawman here.
Now why do they use it? Because they, like you do not want to face the positive of any of it or in any way facilitate public support for such. The fact is EVERY candidate (even Ayn Rand) is a compromise.
Trump has quite specifically taken Objectivist and Libertairan actions:
Requiring each new regulation to have a prior one eliminated
Reducing the Executive Branch overreach by limiting the actions of the Dept of Ed, the EPA and the FCC, et al.
These are all upsides, never previously implemented by a Chief Executive in the US. Even you would do the same, and perhaps more.
Man up, and stop whining about meaningful discussion.
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