Trump and Ojectivism
Posted by Tavolino 5 years, 8 months ago to Government
Trump and Objectivism
I’m puzzled by the formal Objectivist movement (ARI, TOS) and their complete disdain for President Trump. From the beginning they have never missed a chance not only to distance themselves, but also follow with a pompous negative certainty, without having the necessary relevant facts. Ironic, considering our foundations are based on proper identification (metaphysics) and validation (epistemology) before passing judgment or taking action (ethics). While I agree principles should never be compromised, context and perspective need to be objectively evaluated and applied, rather than a blind intrinsic repetition. Regarding Trump, there some broad hierarchal recognitions that I believe are very consonant with our philosophy.
Our fundamental basis is metaphysics, which is the proper identification of the nature of something. More than any past politician, however brash, Trump calls it like he sees it within his known knowledge. Be it the emotional motivations of political correctness, the lies of the “fake news,” the imbedded corruption, the recognition of the good and bad on the world stage (Israel, China, North Korea, Iran), the parasitical nations that feed off our teat, etc., etc.. The transparency of his thoughts have been unmatched and not hidden behind political speak, spins, alternate agendas, backroom deals or deceit. It is what it is.
As Dr. Jerome Huyler noted, “Trump has the sense of life of an individualist. His common sense - born of decades of experience as a businessman and dealing with politicians - tells him that taxes and heavy-handed regulations destroy economies. It is true, as Rand said that common sense is the child's method of thinking. But it is born of empirical experience,” the basis of knowledge acquisition.
His “America First” mantra should be championed by us. Rand had always said America will never regain its greatness until it changes its altruist morality. America First is just that. It’s not some blind German nationalism, but an attitude that America’s interests need to be selfishly upheld. This is a necessary fundamental to our ethics. He has attempted to keep open discussions with all, based around trade and fair exchange. Rand had said, “The trader and the warrior have been fundamental antagonist throughout history.” His movement away from aggressive wars, political globalism and multi-lateral agreements keep our own self-interests as paramount. It’s the application of the trader principle.
Lastly, his counter-punch mindset and approach is completely in line with our moral rightness of retaliation. He may prod or poke, but does not pull the proverbial trigger until he’s attacked, either with words or actions.
There is a dire threat that’s facing our country today with the abuses and power of the ingrained bureaucracy utilized for political purposes. It's imperative that all Americans unite, led by the voices of reason to identify and expose this fundamental threat to freedom. It's not about the false alternative of Trump or never Trump, it's about the American system and the fundamental role, purpose and responsibilities of government, regardless ones political persuasion.
As Objectivists, we need to continually apply our principles in the real world of what is, slowly moving it to where it should be. We need to descend from the “ivory tower” to the first floor of reality. Trump may not be able to articulate the principles, but are not what’s mentioned above consistent with our most basic and fundamental beliefs as Objectivists?
I’m puzzled by the formal Objectivist movement (ARI, TOS) and their complete disdain for President Trump. From the beginning they have never missed a chance not only to distance themselves, but also follow with a pompous negative certainty, without having the necessary relevant facts. Ironic, considering our foundations are based on proper identification (metaphysics) and validation (epistemology) before passing judgment or taking action (ethics). While I agree principles should never be compromised, context and perspective need to be objectively evaluated and applied, rather than a blind intrinsic repetition. Regarding Trump, there some broad hierarchal recognitions that I believe are very consonant with our philosophy.
Our fundamental basis is metaphysics, which is the proper identification of the nature of something. More than any past politician, however brash, Trump calls it like he sees it within his known knowledge. Be it the emotional motivations of political correctness, the lies of the “fake news,” the imbedded corruption, the recognition of the good and bad on the world stage (Israel, China, North Korea, Iran), the parasitical nations that feed off our teat, etc., etc.. The transparency of his thoughts have been unmatched and not hidden behind political speak, spins, alternate agendas, backroom deals or deceit. It is what it is.
As Dr. Jerome Huyler noted, “Trump has the sense of life of an individualist. His common sense - born of decades of experience as a businessman and dealing with politicians - tells him that taxes and heavy-handed regulations destroy economies. It is true, as Rand said that common sense is the child's method of thinking. But it is born of empirical experience,” the basis of knowledge acquisition.
His “America First” mantra should be championed by us. Rand had always said America will never regain its greatness until it changes its altruist morality. America First is just that. It’s not some blind German nationalism, but an attitude that America’s interests need to be selfishly upheld. This is a necessary fundamental to our ethics. He has attempted to keep open discussions with all, based around trade and fair exchange. Rand had said, “The trader and the warrior have been fundamental antagonist throughout history.” His movement away from aggressive wars, political globalism and multi-lateral agreements keep our own self-interests as paramount. It’s the application of the trader principle.
Lastly, his counter-punch mindset and approach is completely in line with our moral rightness of retaliation. He may prod or poke, but does not pull the proverbial trigger until he’s attacked, either with words or actions.
There is a dire threat that’s facing our country today with the abuses and power of the ingrained bureaucracy utilized for political purposes. It's imperative that all Americans unite, led by the voices of reason to identify and expose this fundamental threat to freedom. It's not about the false alternative of Trump or never Trump, it's about the American system and the fundamental role, purpose and responsibilities of government, regardless ones political persuasion.
As Objectivists, we need to continually apply our principles in the real world of what is, slowly moving it to where it should be. We need to descend from the “ivory tower” to the first floor of reality. Trump may not be able to articulate the principles, but are not what’s mentioned above consistent with our most basic and fundamental beliefs as Objectivists?
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Look, if you want to argue there are some not-all-bad things from the Trump administration, like ewv has done, then do so. I can see some of those points.
But too many here are breathlessly supporting Trump as some turning of the tide, or pretending there's a schism in Objectivism re him. These things are just plain false.
Trump is a big government leftist. Sure he has some OK appointees that are doing some OK things, but that's not enough for me personally to be celebrating anything. Overall the Trump administration is just another left wing administration.
But one that's moved the discourse in a far more uglier, tribal and nationalistic direction then it has been before.
Why?
But even in that there can be specific policies that, at least for the moment, for as long as it lasts, differ enough to avoid the Democrat candidate, knowing that the overall trend remains the same.
We can only choose among possible alternatives. A choice in an election is not the same as the choice of what to morally sanction and what you prefer for the longer term. Changing that course isn't done by restricting oneself to voting every two years.
But there is more to evaluating Trump or any other politician than politics and the general term "leftist". Even a liberal or less radical leftist may show more or less rationality and common sense.
Being principled, but not pragmatic, is virtuous, but can be (certainly not always) ineffective.
Since 1967 we have steadily dropped from 26% to less than 7% in 2016. During that same period China has increase from 2% to over 50% of the world's production. Possibly more today.
For the same reasons that we should be energy independent, should we not be concerned if we ever had to ramp up our military and have to rely on China for supply. Nothing to do with Trump, but more of what our military needs are without having to deal with a potential future enemy.
Objectivists are not pragmatic, they are principled.
This is far from an accurate assessment of the Libertarian Party’s influence. If we were to apply the same benchmark to Objectivism, it might resemble the equally inaccurate paragraph below:
“The Objectivist philosophy's ‘case’ itself shows why for 60 years it has remained a fringe philosophy with no chance of changing or coming close to changing America’s overall culture, with no effect on keeping out the worst philosophies that threaten us, let alone replace them with anything better.”
The fact is that both of the above formulations are wrong because they massively understate the influence of both the Libertarian Party and the Objectivist philosophy. Although neither is yet a major player in America’s political and cultural life, both have made significant inroads and are continuing to do so.
Ewv, you are correct that Rand was the best presenter, but they were her own ideas. But it was initially Branden that brought it to a larger audience. You say “they do not want to be sold,” with the negative implication that the sale removes the individual thought process re their self-interests. I’m sure that’s not what you meant. A sale is a voluntary exchange of values, be it intellectually, emotionally, or materially. Every social interaction is a sale of sorts. When you leave your house to go to the local market, you comb your hair, put on clean shirt, you wait on line to purchase goods while interacting with the cashier, maybe even striking up conversation with others in line. Your overall attitude and demeanor can either further simple expression or stifle interaction, making your transaction easy or more difficult. One needs to identify the nature and importance of the exchange to formulate what and how is conveyed. From that aspect, life is a continual sale, not in the sense of misleading the facts typical of the “used car salesman,” but properly representing the ideas or goods based on their efficacy and contextual application. That’s rational interaction. The idea is to heighten their interest and encourage further inquiry. There is an old expression that you never know who is in the “audience,” and where chance encounters lead. Sometimes we spread our ideas from the concrete to the broad abstract, sometimes vice versa, depending on the context and nature of the other person. The consistency of the idea remains, whether going up or down that ladder. Your context of “being sold” is someone that really wants to be “told,” an issue with many pseudo-Objectivists. Spreading good ideas starts with a simple exchange, developing and demonstrating the consistency is a longer process.
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There's nothing ivory tower about this and it's all initiated by Thoritsu. https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post... I have no interest in his feuding. Take it up with the moderator.
Misquoted quotes, degrading assertions, whining, and no rebuttal to the simple logical arguments.
You can go now. Some of these other people and I are actually having a discussion finally.
It is part of Thoristu's sustained ongoing personal attacks that you can trace back on this page (and others), consisting of open taunting, mocking, insults, smears, misrepresentations, made up quotes and now even nonsense phrases like "protected class for pronoun references" all as part of the provocation. It more resembles the mentality of a juvenile lout on a fifth grade school yard, not the "logic" he claims for himself.
It seems to have begun with a previous thread in a discussion on the role of altruism and fundamental ideas in the course of the culture towards collectivism, in which he concluded with "Arrogant puke" and "I already terminated this worthless discussion, but someone persisted" as his excuse. https://www.galtsgulchonline.com/post...
His personal attacks have since become cruder, in some kind of vendetta he is carrying on and permitted to continue with resentment for Objectivism that he repeatedly calls "dogma". Perhaps he is accustomed to dominating and browbeating people into submission and thinks he can get away with behavior here that if practiced in person would normally land him on his back.
I do not "lose cool", over this or "pragmatism" (which I have seriously discussed several times here), but you are right that that such personal disruption is what he wants. But he doesn't care that such behavior "isn't Objectivism". My response is straightforward description and moral denunciation of obviously abusive personal behavior and his disruption of the serious discussion he doesn't like (but not wrestling in the mud he created). He calls that rejection "whining" as he escalates the taunting.
We have much more important and interesting things to discuss here and we should not have to deal with this abuse at all, even to have to talk about it, but neither can it be ignored now that he persistently shoves it in our faces in his emotional crusade. We know there are people out there who think and behave that way as Alinskyite tactics become more prevalent on the web; the more significant question is why it is tolerated on this forum.
You are quite right about the kindness point. When the state assumes control of sympathy, little remains individually. Same thing happened to charity when FDR implemented welfare.
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