Is capitalism really the ONLY economic system proper to man?
Posted by no1laserjock 12 years, 3 months ago to Economics
I am an objectivist. I am extremely well-versed in philosophy and economics. I have come to believe that up to this point in history that may have been true. I believe it is against man's life at this point in time, considering the availability of technology.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnG4lpcn9...
After all of this, I am walking away from this site,
"Thinking Capitalism is an EPIC FAIL!"
AND In this particular respect and a few others (especially her view on emotions -which I know to be f'd up because Nathaniel Branden was my therapist for a time and Nathaniel Leigh and I have since become friends via email and phone calls (mostly with Leigh), and Ayn clearly did NOT have access to psychology and brain science that we have to day.
Oh my God the All mighty Ayn Rand -My No1 hero!- oh... do i dare say it... here goes...
WAS WRONG ABOUT SOME THINGS! GASP!
Considering lost causes here is a letter from a "friend" whom I had to let go because of this letter. He is not the first to present this crap.
This is much more agonizing than you could ever dream that I am! LOL ..Er? ...Enjoy?...
I used to believe my thoughts, versions, and stories to be true as well many years ago, but I had to let all of that go for the love of sanity and peace. There is no right or wrong here. I don't have any answers to issues you mentioned. There is nothing I feel I need to believe in. Everything is always absolutely just the way it should be even though I or anyone can't ever understand just how it fits into the whole of life at the time. Whatever you feel like you need to believe is exactly what you need to be believing at that time. Therefore, I have no problem with anything you say or with anything anyone else says because all of that stuff is only relatively true at best...never ultimately true...nothing in this world can ever be ultimately true. That's why I'm fine with it all just as it is, whenever it is, however it is. How could anyone ever improve synchronistic perfection that has always already been the case and will continue to always already be the case? I don't have any enemies...I still may choose not to hang around certain types, but I never see them as an enemy. I trust you and everyone else to do exactly whatever it is they need to do when they do it...knowing full well that I can never understand the reasons for it all. This may not sound very peaceful or sane to you, but I have never before experienced this much peace, sanity, lightness, and ease as I do now living in the world this way. I enjoy doing things with you and all the guys I know here in Oregon, and you guys are always welcome around me.
Argument from ignorance and dialectically implies a false dichotomy bifurcation which is employed here:
"[O]r you steal it from someone else, thief, Only two ways to look at it"
No, there are more than 2 ways to look at it. Your mind is capable of further conceptualizations and integrations.
Lets apply this logic to the existence of God (money for a so-called objectivist) :
I just KNOW that the universe was created by god. It is the only reasonable explanation. You can't get something from nothing. Argument from ignorance. In other words, this is the best Idea I can think of.
You don't have any metaphysical evidence to support that claim. In fact, with the discovery of the Higgs Boson, we have a pretty good idea that the universe was probably formed by "membranes" occurring and interacting at the level of Plank energies. (blank out)
Either Man is Good or Evil - False Dichotomy Bifurcation. He could be mentally ill or have a physical brain disorder. (blank out)
If you are getting angry over this, that indicates a threat to your paradigm. I have maintained consistently that:
I REJECT ANY USE OF FORCE AGAINST ANY MAN FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN SELF DEFENSE! I REFUSE TO LEGISLATE IT OR PARTICIPATE POLITICALLY IN A SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS IT. I VEHEMENTLY REJECT DUTY AND ANY DEONTOLOGICAL ETHICS!
I ALSO REFUSE TO BE AN IGNORANT GUARDIAN OF THE STATUS QUO!
Respectfully Jamie
I actually DO check my premises regularly…
Here’s my response to:
Objectiveanalyst Re Money as trade What’s it worth? #7
{?$}no1laserjocks Premise
{!$} objectivanalyst premise
{?$}Now the problem is, “Doesn’t Dagny have a right to charge (some arbitrary price) what she determines for use of the railroad?”
The premise is that sure she has a right but contextually, the money IS a convention of convenience for exchange, I agree. Her rights only come into existence where another person begins and ends. And I agree that they must trade by consent.
{!$}Now the problem… #7 Money was conceived for convenience of trade of value. If you have a horse to trade but you only want a sack of potatoes you can’t divide your horse to pay for the potatoes so you sell the horse for money so you can buy the potatoes with money left for other exchanges...
{?$}I absolutely agree, “Money was conceived”. It is a subjective, and arbitrary idea, it has served us well up until this point in history. Human beings evolve and adapt like all other creatures. We’re not yet ready to let money go but we have out evolved its usefulness and meaning. We have to be very wise about how we are going to use the remaining resources that we have. Capitalists don’t seem to have any plan other than, “Somehow if we can just trade laissez faire, then the world will be at peace, and enjoy abundance.” How? What exactly is the plan? Why should we all follow it? How will it serve my life, relationships, creativity and happiness?
Again, whether you own the State of Florida or a Toothbrush, you will have collision over resources, only ideas are protected from differential advantage. Only ideas serve man when they are implemented. You can’t extract and idea from someone’s head without their consent … Yet.
Once again, when man invented the wheel he didn’t go to Home Depot and buy a block of stone, haul it back to his cave and carve it into a thick disc. He expressed his relationship to reality (metaphysics) and his perception, cognition and integration of reality (epistemology), and by taking action by carving he engaged and expressed his relationship to reality; he was “right for life”, he was GOOD. (ethics).
The first wheel makes the second easier to create since now he has one wheel on which to carry a second stone block back to his neighbors cave, not to mention carrying the Mammoth haunches that serve the troops energy requirements. At this point his efficiency begins to exponentially increase. Since all he had was his energy he needed a way to store the potential energy gleaned from reducing labor. He invented money. It served us well to get to this point. Now humans see efficiency producing diminishing returns in the perceived value. Money is now falsely inflated, because anyone who has it doesn’t want to loose it. The premise of loosing it triggers the reptilian brain almost entirely surpassing the frontal lobes! Fight, Flight, Freeze or F.. reproduce.
Fight is the emotion employed.
If you own a business and you are used to a certain level of efficiency and profit, and your returns diminish because of this (which will occur if your product lasts indefinitely and is the best), and you happen to be the only one or few that offer an energy (human life, happiness and creative) expanding or saving product. In order to maintain your perceived value (that you are “free to decide”) under a capitalistic system, you have seven primary choices available:
1. Fake reality and withhold the product from the market, thus falsely increasing its PERCEIVED value (never its ACTUAL value!).
2. Engage in competition, which carries far more emotional weight and intellectual burden then developing the product, thus reducing EFFICIENCY while staving off the same reptilian stress associated with being hunted by a lion.
3. Bribe, or legally disarm others, using the Government as a protection racket.
4. Psychologically and emotionally manipulate others into believing they need your product when they actually don’t: Create status symbols and snake oil promises. By ADVERTISING.
5. Build in ‘planned obsolescence’.
Bernard London's pamphlet Ending the Depression Through Planned Obsolescence 1932
"Instilling in the buyer the desire to own something a little newer, a little better, a little sooner than is necessary." Brook Stevens Industrial Designer 1954
6. Total honesty. You realize your product is obsolete now and seek a different activity, or invention.
7. Do nothing.
Every choice above is immoral except the new product or invention that serves mans energy and creative requirements.
My point is that money has completely left the sphere as a representation of energy required and transmuted itself into the meaning of either a natural resources value or an artificial construct like “Hello Kitty!” products. You can fill the Grand Canyon with “Hello Kitty” lunchboxes and crap but it will NEVER represent the energetic and creative value for a cure for cancer. It is 100% subjective and 0% Objective.
When we are born, we are intellectually not emotionally born tabula rasa. However, we do possess evolutionary traits. For instance, I was adopted. My parents had virtually no artistic creativity, language or science skills, but were excellent entrepreneurs. I excelled, at arts, language and science. Traits I share with my blood family whom I did not meet until I was 36.
{Human behavioral evolution -Robert Sapolski.}
For anyone on earth; here you are born into some politico economic system that you are service bound to (or you die) without consent, without being informed, without your permission, or maybe you’re lucky enough to be a simple Bushman that is actually Happy. I could accept his “reality” because I know that the lions are NOT an idea. But money is, and we have a conflict because I perceive something better! I can’t blank out the lion, and I can’t blank out the money.
I could kill all the lions, which would completely destroy the natural order (totally immoral and reality-faking in my opinion). I can accept the money system, which I have done and whore my creativity and/or labor out to the highest bidder (which I am continuing to do to survive); while I develop a better plan –which few others in the west seems capable of, willing or interested in pursuing at present. Yes, I am THAT arrogant. At least I AM TRYING!
I refuse to blindly accept socially instilled premises without analysis. I believe that You and I are born into indoctrinated and indentured servitude to a completely delusional paradigm that is religiously (I don’t mean by the Churches) supported only by “faith”, and instilled as a “Fact of reality” that should never be challenged. I’m challenging it.
So far no metaphysical aspect of the natural world can be accounted for that necessitates its existence in this moment. It’s merely an idea whose time has run out.
AND ONCE AGAIN!
I REJECT ANY USE OF FORCE AGAINST ANY MAN FOR ANY REASON OTHER THAN SELF DEFENSE! I REFUSE TO LEGISLATE IT OR PARTICIPATE POLITICALLY IN A SYSTEM THAT SUPPORTS IT. I VEHEMENTLY REJECT DUTY AND ANY DEONTOLOGICAL ETHICS!
I ALSO REFUSE TO BE AN IGNORANT GUARDIAN OF THE STATUS QUO!
.----.
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/ __ > <__ \
/ / / "" \ \ \ Blank out...
/ / \ '----' / \ \
\ \_ /`""|"'"`\ _ / /
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Since then corruption has brought us to the brink of ruin (some say we are beyond) by incremental steps. Liberty is lost one bit at a time. This only proves that man will corrupt the system, any system. This is the history of the world. Nations are established, they are corrupted, they are reformed.
"In these sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution with all its faults, if they are such; because I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other. I doubt too whether any other Convention we can obtain, may be able to make a better Constitution. For when you assemble a number of men to have the advantage of their joint wisdom, you inevitably assemble with those men, all their prejudices, their passions, their errors of opinion, their local interests, and their selfish views. From such an assembly can a perfect production be expected? It therefore astonishes me, Sir, to find this system approaching so near to perfection as it does; and I think it will astonish our enemies, who are waiting with confidence to hear that our councils are confounded like those of the Builders of Babel; and that our States are on the point of separation, only to meet hereafter for the purpose of cutting one another's throats. Thus I consent, Sir, to this Constitution because I expect no better, and because I am not sure, that it is not the best." Benjamin Franklin (Constitutional convention excerpt)
What I want is immaterial. What will happen is, that there will be revolution, peaceful hopefully, but possibly violent. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" Thomas Jefferson
It doesn't matter what we do as long as it creates value which others desire, now or in a star trek future. Early star trek had credits. Later ones had no need of currency, at least in star fleet but they made no satisfactory argument regarding how they changed the nature of man so he was satisfied with the system. It was a fantasy! And even then there were the Ferengi money/gold capitalists $$$. The medium of the currency is irrelevant so long as the parties reach agreement. Gold, paper, or sea shells it doesn't matter if your alien won,t accept your currency and wants gold or unobtanium you barter. Gold has been used for this purpose between nations but that is only because it is of value to that nation. A nomad may find needle and thread more valuable. You trade what you have to who wants it. You trade your skills/ the value you create, for your paycheck, sometimes by the hour sometimes by the job. You trade your paycheck for gold. Round and round it goes.
We should return to the gold standard, only because it constrains government inflation from printing, and corrupting the system so quickly. Somehow over time the corrupt collude, propagandize and utilize crises to find a way around it eventually, which is what happened.
When any currency regardless of form is deemed no longer of value those who gambled on its future lose. A new currency is adopted. Humanity moves on. There were plenty of Confederate notes.
I believe Rand has placed emotion in its proper place in ones cognitive hierarchy. No rational system can be devised to deal with the individual disparate emotions of society.
No, a system must be devised that operates justly indifferent to emotion, but allowing each their existence and individual pursuits. This is the ideal that our founders pursued as well as the times, disparate desires and their intellects allowed. It was not perfect, and in an attempt to perfect our union many good things happened, but also some in their hubris, imagined a utopia and in their zeal robbed us of our liberty and prosperity.
"The man of system... is apt to be very wise in his own conceit; and is often so enamoured with the supposed beauty of his own plan of government, that he cannot suffer the smallest deviation from any part of it. He goes on to establish it completely and in all it's parts, without any regard either to the great interests or to the strong prejudices which may oppose it. He seems to imagine that he can arrange the different members of a great society with as much ease as a hand arranges the different pieces upon a chess board..." Adam Smith, the Theory of Moral Sentiments, 1759
When men enter into a social contract voluntarily to form civil society, they accept the terms and costs as a fair exchange for the benefits it offers. Every generation has the duty to decide if they wish to abolish it, reform it, or leave it.
"When in the course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's god entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impell them to the separation." I am sure you recognize the preamble to the DOI. One must decide when they no longer feel free and they no longer owe a duty to a tyrannical government but feel duty bound to throw off the shackles.
We need a small government to protect our person, property from the brutes, the "Atillas." Anarchy will free you from social contracts but expose you to force at the hands of the brutes.
Your mis/dis integrations in my opinion are in your perceptions of the nature of man, money and in your overall construct of governance and its purpose/necessity as demonstrated by your suppositions.
It is because of the assertions / conclusions you have espoused, that I find something wrong with either your metaphysics, or your epistemology. Of course since I see things differently and unless I can persuade you to see things as I do, you will undoubtedly question mine.
I do not believe in altruism. Benevolence is fine.
The Tit for Tat, and Prisoner dilemma are pshychobable. They are interesting academic exercises, novelties but they are games and in the real world they have little significance. In the real world people in significant numbers do not find themselves in these circumstances or think that deep and the metrics are unconstrained. One may give up their life for others and calculate/decide that they would see their will be done and see another live, thus gaining satisfaction or as you conceive it the good feeling of Altruism. But since you get the satisfaction of seeing your will done it is no longer altruism. Altruism does not exist! The definition of altruism is 1. unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness 2. Ethics- the doctrine that the welfare of society is the proper goal of an individual's actions; opposed to Egoism, Webster. Well, since the "self" was involved in the sacrifice and made choice more satisfying than the alternative it was not selfless. To be selfless is to be null, a sacrificial animal at best. You have denied your own right to existence. It is not my responsibility to put the welfare of society ahead of my own. Again this makes me a resource, a slave. No. Societies welfare is best when individuals are sovereign, and protected, because society is nothing more than an association of individuals.
Now here you go into a series of disparaging, hyperbolic remarks about Rand that I find unsubstantiated, mis-characterizations or misunderstandings. then an unsubstantiated attack on capitalism being geared only for the men of ability, disregarding any consideration for the overall benefit to man, and offering no serious alternative. Then you demand that the men of ability use the fruit of their labor to "free all men". This is not their duty. Remember you don't accept duty! But you have a duty whether you like it or not, it is to yourself. You must make your fruit in order to survive, or rely on the benevolence of others. You have no moral right to demand it of others, just as you resent the impositions of the social contract. To see otherwise is a contradiction.
I have spent far too much time on this and I am not inclined to play anymore since I asked you to keep it brief and it appears you wish to write an entire thesis. And I now find myself questioning your intentions and wondering if I am being played.
Either way I am afraid I can't commit this much time to your inquiries. One cannot expect to solve the worlds problems all at once, even if possible. You are trying to extract a lifetime of study from a man without that much left to spare. You must now be brief and select your particular priorities to argue, and before I consider continuing this dialog, I must know from you, what philosophers, economists, political scientists and founding fathers you have studied and which have influenced you most. I do not have time to sort through all of this, so at this point I am inclined to have you take up your arguments with a group of more scholarly men than myself by advising you on who to study if you are truly interested in examining/challenging your premises. From the reception you are recieving here it might be the best course of action before you seriously re-engage.
Taxed enough already,
O.A.
I am dissapointed I expect something beyond a high school clique.
I never insulted anyone, I never poisoned the well. I gave my most honest answers and I am being chastised and ridiculed prior to being "debunked".
So far you've all failed to debunk me. ONLY objectiveanalyst, Khalling and Lostinaforest advanced corrections cogent arguments challenges and premises.
So give me thumbs down for thinking and exploring a premise. While your at it check yours...
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