The Second-hand Science of Thorium fission power production

Posted by Doug_Huffman 4 years, 9 months ago to Science
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Can anyone here defend thorium fission power production from their own knowledge? Or liquid metal cooled / fueled fission reactors?

Is it all stale second-hand dreams from years gone by?

There has not been a successful thorium fueled fission power plant. There are only plans in development for thorium based power production.

The Japanese experience with Monju near Tsuruga NPP epitomizes molten metal cooling.

Ayn Rand on Second-handers, from The Fountainhead.

“That, precisely, is the deadliness of second-handers. They have no concern for facts, ideas, work. They're concerned only with people. They don't ask: 'Is this true?' They ask: 'Is this what others think is true?' Not to judge, but to repeat. Not to do, but to give the impression of doing. Not creation, but show. Not ability, but friendship. Not merit, but pull.

What would happen to the world without those who do, think, work, produce? Those are the egotists. You don't think through another's brain and you don't work through another's hands.

When you suspend your faculty of independent judgment, you suspend consciousness. To stop consciousness is to stop life. Second-handers have no sense of reality. Their reality is not within them, but somewhere in that space which divides one human body from another. Not an entity, but a relation--anchored to nothing.

That's the emptiness I couldn't understand in people. That's what stopped me whenever I faced a committee. Men without an ego. Opinion without a rational process. Motion without brakes or motor. Power without responsibility. The second-hander acts, but the source of his actions is scattered in every other living person. It's everywhere and nowhere and you can't reason with him. He's not open to reason. You can't speak to him--he can't hear. You're tried by an empty bench. A blind mass running amuck, to crush you without sense or purpose.

Steve Mallory couldn't define the monster, but he knew. That's the drooling beast he fears. The second-hander.” “I think your second-handers understand this, try as they might not to admit it to themselves. Notice how they'll accept anything except a man who stands alone. They recognize him at once. By instinct. There's a special, insidious kind of hatred for him. They forgive criminals. They admire dictators. Crime and violence are a tie. A form of mutual dependence. They need ties. They've got to force their miserable little personalities on every single person they meet.

The independent man kills them--because they don't exist within him and that's the only form of existence they know. Notice the malignant kind of resentment against any idea that propounds independence. Notice the malice toward an independent man. Look back at your own life, Howard, and at the people you've met. They know. They're afraid. You're a reproach.” [Edited, whitespace for readability] (The Fountainhead by Ayn Rand. Kindle edition from Plume 1971)


All Comments

  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    K-431 was what happened when amateurs get to play.There was a Fast boat in pearl that had the wrong charcoal delivered and they put most of it in before they figured it out. That too, was just not paying attention, as far as I was told. Made me happy I never went nuke.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Also I maintained the unofficial ad hoc ‘passive ranging’ plot in sonar because I was supernumerary and understood the physics.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Since you will directly cite the Wikipedia, read the K-431 article about its accident. Compare the SL-1 accident description. Try to read Project Bellona

    SL-1 jerked one rod. K-431 pulled the whole head too far. A co-worker was on the fated SL-1 crew but called in sick with the sniffles. He taught me (a placard over his desk) “Ask your own questions. Find your own answers.”. A tip o’ the hat to Ed.

    Reactivity control was a primary job.

    Aboard ship, I sat the conformal array as a nuke, with two initial detections to my credit.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well, yes, now you write it, it was ALFA, we had tracked one, and no one could confess to it, since there were supposed to be none in our neck of the woods, but the triangulation was over 200 miles. We had good matches, but never were told what we tracked for an hour or so, who knows. We had lots of weird things happen to us that were never explained, and we had a 3" special recorder running 24/7 that recorded all our raw data. All my intel went for liquid sodium ( back in the late 80's early 90's). But all the pages I find say Lead-Bismouth. Here is a good illustrated web site:

    http://www.hisutton.com/Alfa_Class_Su...

    Seawolf did have a Sodium Plant, which Rickover decided was just not any good:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Sea...
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Well then, you will have to excuse my misunderstanding..

    The Soviet Project 705 Lira was called by NATO ALFA not Alpha differentiated from Beta as I expected.

    Further, two different reactor power plants were used in the ALFA Class, both Lead-Bismuth cooled fast reactors. They were maintained hot shutdown in port on shorepower. One may have burned during refueling but not due to SODIUM!

    YOU may be mistakenly thinking of K-431 / 31 ECHO Class Project 675 in October 1985 that suffered a refueling accident.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Alpha Class Soviet nuclear submarine, used a high powered sodium nuclear plant. Had one burn in drydock when they were trying to re core it when they had a coolant leak. Very messy.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Two demonstrations that we played with; put a stack of styrofoam cups in a free flood and get perfectly proportioned miniatures back. String a wire across the engineroom to watch it sag.

    Stress is force per area. Strain is change in length per length.
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  • Posted by $ Commander 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    That this was "straight" construction was a fundamental flaw for the existing cross-section. A curved construction changes the stress and strain to that of compression. Eng. 101. Basic physics. Your and Doug's lives depended on this principle in the Boats!
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, keep an eye on 3 Gorges Dam, someone said there was a video that showed before and now where it was straight when built and it now has a noticeable zig zag to it, I am waiting for the Flash News, and then they will need a war to turn heads away from the spectacle...
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    My first notable experience with the politics of collective enterprises, a.k.a. committees. They diffuse the political responsibility.

    Democracy is the failure of leadership.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    There you go!

    Re Russians. They don't care about safety like we do. Chinese are the worst.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Yes, the Alpha plant was sodium, and they had a hell of a time in overhauls, and refuling. USS Seawolf (old one) had one for a while and then it got tossed, the mettalurgy required was not at hand then. I think the Russians found that out to.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Base Realignment And Closure Commission 3rd edition. Currently in sixth round with reruns recommended per eight years.
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  • Posted by lrshultis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Note that about 60% of energy from a fusion bomb is due to breeding fissionable elements with neutrons from fusion of tritium.
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  • Posted by $ jbrenner 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Tritium is a radioactive isotope of hydrogen. The so-called hydrogen bombs were actually made from tritium, not standard hydrogen. We cross-trained with the uranium group down the hall from us at what was then Westinghouse Savannah River Company. Shortly after I left, the lab was nationalized.

    https://www.space.com/40479-space-nuc...
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  • Posted by lrshultis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    How does safely storing tritium attest anything about nuclear power?
    Have you a reference for the use of thorium for long term space travel? I have not seen anything about that potential use of thorium.
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  • Posted by $ Thoritsu 4 years, 9 months ago
    First Hand:
    Liquid metal reactors work just fine. Several have been built. A couple have been to sea. They work great, except for some material challenges. Very power dense.
    Second Hand:
    (I think) Thorium reactors work fine too. There is just no stomach for their development. I have studied them, and have a rudimentary understanding. However, although I am very technical, I can not commit the effort to making that first hand knowledge.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Commissioned Sand Lance SSN-660 EAOS 1975 Marine Electrician CNSY 1980 qualified engineer N/S 0989-028-5000 Manual for Control of Testing and Plant Conditions. BRAC-3 retired me in 1995 and I have lived off of investments and CSRA since. Life is good.
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  • Posted by $ nickursis 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Thank you for yours, I started in 76 and was on Will Rogers (1977), then went to C school, went to Wahoo (SS 565) and the Gudgeon (SS567), then to Trident Sonar and Henry M Jackson (730) and nevada (733). Retired in 96, and have worked at Intel now for 23 years as an Engineering Technician.
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  • Posted by 4 years, 9 months ago in reply to this comment.
    Public information has the Alfa Class decommissioned by 1996. So did I have similar interactions, as a nuke that was allowed to sit after watch on a sonar stack with two initial detections to my credit. As the nuke bull-throttleman I spent considerable time moving my ship conducting acoustic tomography.

    Thank you for your service. USN SS ‘69 - ‘75
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